Hollow by C.M. Nascosta

In which Evelyne and Daniella learn just how many uses there are for a detached head.

Transcript

Speaker 1:

This is Intoxicated Literature.

Evelyne Crowe:

Welcome to Intoxicated Literature, the Halloween episode. I am Evelyne Crowe.

Daniella Drake:

And I'm Daniella Drake.

Evelyne Crowe:

We are doing the Hollow. Is it Hollow by C.M. Nascosta?

Daniella Drake:

It's Hollow, yep.

Evelyne Crowe:

Okay. This is going to be a fun one. I can tell you already.

Daniella Drake:

It's definitely going to be interesting.

Evelyne Crowe:

Okay.

Daniella Drake:

Before we get into it, spoilers.

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh, spoilers. There's going to be lots of inappropriate content. So if you are not 18 or over, just check yourself out. You don't need to be here.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

Bye. No minors, please. We swear, I'm definitely several drinks in so-

Daniella Drake:

100%.

Evelyne Crowe:

There was some pre-gaming.

Daniella Drake:

There's no filter. Yeah. There's no filter, so sorry.

Evelyne Crowe:

Goodbye, yes. And yeah, we will spoil everything. Everything.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. So this is actually anthology of two short stories that C.M. Nascosta wrote.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes.

Daniella Drake:

And we are drinking a Headless Horseman cocktail.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes. And mine did not turn out to be so pretty. It just looks like orange.

Daniella Drake:

Well, mine is just made, so I have an advantage. And I had to get creative with the food coloring, I had to put it on my finger first, otherwise it just sank to the bottom.

Evelyne Crowe:

Mine is not the gel stuff, but it just kind of-

Daniella Drake:

Actually, it looks really pretty. It looks like whiskey.

Evelyne Crowe:

It kind of does. It's actually a really good cocktail. I am not-

Daniella Drake:

It is. I like it. It's ginger beer-

Evelyne Crowe:

I did not use ginger beer. I used ginger ale. I'm not a big ginger fan.

Daniella Drake:

It's actually basically a Moscow mule.

Evelyne Crowe:

It is.

Daniella Drake:

But I really like it. I think it's tasty.

Evelyne Crowe:

I made mine very mild. I used ginger ale. I don't like ginger beer.

Daniella Drake:

Totally fine. It even says in the recipe, not a big deal.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's a strong, strong... There's a lot of vodka in here.

Daniella Drake:

And because this is Halloween.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes.

Daniella Drake:

We dressed up.

Evelyne Crowe:

You'll never guess what my costume is.

Daniella Drake:

Please explain to everyone what you're costume is, because I love it. I love it.

Evelyne Crowe:

It was your idea. So this is Daniella's idea, and because I'm going to a party that she's invited me to, so I went all in on this idea and I bought lipstick for this, I did the whole thing. So I am the deep ocean and I'm just going to be walking around this party every once in a while, just going.

Daniella Drake:

I would've done it if you hadn't. I think it's so funny.

Evelyne Crowe:

I may or may not have bought a wig.

Daniella Drake:

Okay. Oh, really?

Evelyne Crowe:

Like a blue wig.

Daniella Drake:

Oh, love it. Love it. I'm excited.

Evelyne Crowe:

With a wig cap and everything. It's going to be a wig.

Daniella Drake:

To be fair, just to explain, this is a themed Halloween party of ship and island kind of theme. So this is why we're going with ocean-type things.

Evelyne Crowe:

And if anyone knows me, I cannot do the typical. There's no like-

Daniella Drake:

You've got to be different.

Evelyne Crowe:

I'm not going to be like Poseidon or a mermaid, because everyone's going to be a mermaid or everyone's going to be a palm tree because those are the normal things when you think islands. So I'm the deep ocean.

Daniella Drake:

I am Mr. Smee. I guess I would be Miss Smee.

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh my God.

Daniella Drake:

So good. It's going to be a great party. So anyway, happy Halloween. Let's get into it.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes. So I actually looked into it because I wanted to learn a little bit about the Sleepy Hollow myth before we talked about Sleepy Hollow. So I looked into it and it was written in 1820.

Daniella Drake:

Wow.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's been around-

Daniella Drake:

It's even earlier than I thought.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, I thought it was written later than that, but it wasn't.

Daniella Drake:

Me too.

Evelyne Crowe:

It was written in 1820, I looked it up, by Washington Irving. And it was written while he was in England doing a tour of the continent.

Daniella Drake:

Interesting.

Evelyne Crowe:

So there are a lot of theories that he heard a lot of the myths and stuff about Dullahan while he was in England, because-

Daniella Drake:

That makes sense.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah. I mean, it's a thing in Irish and Celtic culture. The Dullahan is a thing.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

As I know, and if you've read my book, you know, it's a thing. So people are like, "Oh, so he must have heard about that and then wrote this myth or this ghost story," because it really is kind of a creepy ghost story if you've read the original thing.

Daniella Drake:

No, it really is. There's a reason why they keep going back to it, because it's a great Halloween story.

Evelyne Crowe:

It really is. And one of my earliest memories actually is watching the Disney one because it really is a perfectly eerie, creepy thing without being too scary.

Daniella Drake:

100% agree. Absolutely agree. As someone who gets scared way too easily, the Disney version was one of my favorite things to watch because it was just enough creepy to make me go, "Ooh."

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, exactly.

Daniella Drake:

But it was never scary-scary.

Evelyne Crowe:

Exactly. Well, it was tied to pumpkins. It was never explicitly tied to Halloween. It was more of a fall vibe as opposed to just Halloween. But the story itself was Ichabod and he falls in love with Katrina van Tassel. And then there's Brom, what's his face? Brom Bones.

Daniella Drake:

Brom Bones.

Evelyne Crowe:

And he's kind of a bully. And you're never really sure if the person on the horse is Brom or a ghost. You're not sure. And the end of the story is just like a close-up of a crushed pumpkin. So you don't know. Ichabod is missing. We don't know where Ichabod went, we don't know what happened to Ichabod. We know that there was a horseless rider or a headless rider, but we don't know what happened. And that's what kind of makes it-

Daniella Drake:

Creepy. Yeah, it gives you shivers. Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah. You're like, "Oh, what happened to Ich?"

Daniella Drake:

Interesting.

Evelyne Crowe:

But that's also what makes it a good myth to draw from because then artists are like, "Well, let's put the jack-o'-lantern in here, and make it even more eerie. Let's put this that, or whatever." And that-

Daniella Drake:

I mean, it's so open-ended that you can kind of add your own spin.

Evelyne Crowe:

Exactly.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

Exactly. And so it just entered Americana because of its ability to be told verbally.

Daniella Drake:

So many different ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And each person is going to put their own filter onto it, so they're going to draw their own conclusions every time about what happened.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yep.

Daniella Drake:

Right? So, yeah. I mean, it's like a universal story at that point. Anybody can hear it and have their own reaction.

Evelyne Crowe:

And Washington Irving is a well-known poet. It's not like he's unknown.

Daniella Drake:

For sure. Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, absolutely. So it makes sense that this story lasted as long as it has. But that's also why it's so surprising to me that it's not such a modern story because it feels modern to me, but it's not.

Daniella Drake:

I know. It's actually really funny because when you said 1820, I was like, "I thought for sure it was the turn of the century." I thought it was early 1900s. So I'm really surprised that it was so early. I thought it was a Victorian thing.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's not.

Daniella Drake:

So that's really interesting.

Evelyne Crowe:

1820. And there was specifically the covered Bridge and the cemetery were safety, so if Ichabod Crane could get to those spots, he was safe when he was being chased by this ghostly figure. But then you cut to the end and it's, "Where did Ichabod go?"

Daniella Drake:

Right. Interesting.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah. So I myself pulled from the original myth, the original Celtic myths, and did not pull from the Americana version. C.M. Nascosta pulled from the Americana version, which is amazing because there's so much you can pull from from this version.

Daniella Drake:

For sure. Absolutely, yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

And it's great what she's done with this. And the two novellas are vastly different from each other.

Daniella Drake:

So different. The first one goes so fast.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's so fast.

Daniella Drake:

It's so fast that it was over before I really even got into it.

Evelyne Crowe:

Well, and it feels... I'm not sure, because I don't subscribe to her Patreon, and I'm not on her newsletter, but it feels like one of those freebies that an author would give you on a newsletter or a Patreon.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, right.

Evelyne Crowe:

It was that short. Which is fine. It was a great story. There was no problem with that.

Daniella Drake:

It doesn't need to be longer, in my opinion. I thought it was the perfect length.

Evelyne Crowe:

No, yeah. Ichabod was an ass.

Daniella Drake:

Yes, I did not like him at all.

Evelyne Crowe:

Ichabod was an ass and got what he deserved.

Daniella Drake:

Yes.

Evelyne Crowe:

I will say that.

Daniella Drake:

Yes, for sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

That being said, I did think that if you are into a humiliation kink kind of thing, you will love this story absolutely.

Daniella Drake:

Absolutely agree. Listen, there's some light degradation in here, there's some humiliation, there's voyeurism. None of those things are things that I particularly enjoy.

Evelyne Crowe:

I kind of like the voyeurism, but I'm more of an exhibition person, so I am on the other side of the coin. But he watches a lot in the beginning.

Daniella Drake:

He does. A lot, yeah. And for me, the voyeurism is probably the most appealing part. I did not like the degradation, the humiliation. Not my thing.

Evelyne Crowe:

Which is fine, but the voyeurism-

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. I spent so much time talking down on myself during the day, I don't need someone else to do it.

Evelyne Crowe:

Which is fine, but if you're into it, this is absolutely for you.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. Oh, no. And also, I've got to give major props for the really creative use of the headless Dullahans. I mean, there's a lot of headless head in here.

Evelyne Crowe:

The first sentence is recognizing the sound of a sloppy blowjob.

Daniella Drake:

Yes.

Evelyne Crowe:

That's the first thing you read when you open this book. And I remember reading it going, "Well, okay, we'll just get right into it then."

Daniella Drake:

I mean, that's kind of what I thought too. I was like, "Whoa, okay. This is right away. Got it. Okay."

Evelyne Crowe:

It was odd. There was a lot of headless head in this.

Daniella Drake:

Yes.

Evelyne Crowe:

And it was very creative uses of the head. And major props to C.M. Nascosta for that.

Daniella Drake:

I absolutely agree. I absolutely agree. And also, this whole kind of rivalry between Ichabod and Brom Bones, which I'm not even sure that Brom Bones is aware of.

Evelyne Crowe:

That's the thing it's like-

Daniella Drake:

It felt all in Ichabod's head.

Evelyne Crowe:

It did. It really did.

Daniella Drake:

Right?

Evelyne Crowe:

Absolutely.

Daniella Drake:

I almost felt like he had some kind of insecurity complex where he was just trying so hard to be, I don't even know, enough.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes.

Daniella Drake:

And then Brom Bones is just walking around-

Evelyne Crowe:

Existing. He's just existing.

Daniella Drake:

... as a hollow rider and he's just being awesome. And it's just because that's who he is.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah.

Daniella Drake:

He's not trying that hard.

Evelyne Crowe:

He's just existing.

Daniella Drake:

And so Ichabod hates him.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah. He's just existing. Brom Bones is a polo player, like a horse polo player, like with the stick and the horse and the whole thing, right?

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

Rich polo player, think if you've ever seen the Crown, and they're riding and they're playing polo, that's it. But big and brawny and strong and-

Daniella Drake:

Very muscular.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes.

Daniella Drake:

Very much in physical peak condition.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes. And they kind of have a locker room boys club thing going on after their matches. And I guess the loser has to give the winner a blowjob. I think that's how it kind of has to go.

Daniella Drake:

I think it's implied. She doesn't actually say it, but that does feel like that's how it works.

Evelyne Crowe:

I think that was implied.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

And Ichabod just kind of stumbles onto it accidentally one day. And he's the schoolteacher, and he is used to feeling like he is in charge, he's used to feeling like he gives favors, he's used to feeling like he's Brom Bones. But I don't think he looks like Brom Bones.

Daniella Drake:

I don't think he's conventional attractiveness.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes.

Daniella Drake:

He's described as very kind of gangly and thin and really tall and just not necessarily what society would be like, "Oh my gosh, he's so hot." He's not going to be a Marvel superhero.

Evelyne Crowe:

And the way he talks about how he gets women isn't because of his looks, it's because of how he talks and because he gives gossip and because he can fit in and give favors, and he can do things like that. So he's manipulative. It's not because he's attractive. And that whole thing, he's self-derogatory. It's not only Brom Bones.

Daniella Drake:

No, it's true. I don't think he has a very high opinion. This is the thing, that's why I keep saying he's got an insecurity complex. He does not view himself as desirable. It's kind of upsetting.

Evelyne Crowe:

So he's already kind of like, "Ehh." But then he sees this whole thing going on in the shower in this locker room, and he's like, "Well, this is kind of hot. I'm not going to lie." And then he accidentally on purpose, stumbles on it again later and is like, "I'm going to maybe make a habit of this again." And then he stumbles upon a scene with his potential, he wants to woo Katrina Van Tassel because she is wealthy, she is pretty, she's an in in the community.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, she's high society and that's what he wants.

Evelyne Crowe:

He doesn't want to just be a school teacher. He wants to be Brom Bones is who he wants to be.

Daniella Drake:

100%. He wants people to look up to him and idolize him. And people don't right now.

Evelyne Crowe:

Don't. Yeah. And it's not just because he is a school teacher, by the way.

Daniella Drake:

No, he's kind of an ass.

Evelyne Crowe:

He is. Like I said, he is an ass.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

So he goes to meet her, and again, ends up watching a scene of oral sex with a head, and then realizes that he's never going to match Brom Bones. There's nothing he can do that's going to equalize him with Brom Bones.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

And I'm just kind of going, "I don't know, Brom Bones is kind of an ass too."

Daniella Drake:

Agreed. I think they're both assholes in a different way.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah. They're both kind of asses. So, okay, fine, be assholes together. I don't think... I just... Okay.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, exactly. That was kind of my take. I was just like, "All right. I guess you both deserve each other."

Evelyne Crowe:

Sure. I think Katrina's going, "Well, I can get some good head from this guy, but whatever."

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. I mean, I did appreciate that too. That was also a clever way to use the headless head with Katrina.

Evelyne Crowe:

I know.

Daniella Drake:

So many opportunities with these Dullahans.

Evelyne Crowe:

So many opportunities. I do like that it was a creature name, and they still had their own family name, and they all had surnames and everything that were different, but they were the Dullahans.

Daniella Drake:

No, I liked it. It was a cool mythology that she created in just a short period of time. You're just kind of like, "Oh, these are people that exist in this world."

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, great. It was very cool. And he didn't want to be a speciest, so he didn't want to stop and stare at the Dullahans, which I thought was funny. Accurate, but funny. But okay. So they're both kind of asses, but they fit together in a weird way.

Daniella Drake:

Yes. No, I agree. They're kind of the same, but on different sides of the coin, right?

Evelyne Crowe:

Right.

Daniella Drake:

They're opposites, but not. They still work. So yeah, I thought... I mean, listen, this story-

Evelyne Crowe:

It's erotica. It's 100% erotica.

Daniella Drake:

It's erotica. There's not really a plot. You're really just there for the sex, which, fine. I mean, it was hot.

Evelyne Crowe:

It was not hot-hot. It was-

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. If that's what you're going for, she nailed it. No pun intended.

Evelyne Crowe:

Dude, look, I'm a big fan of guys really enjoying themselves, so they were all really-

Daniella Drake:

Right.

Evelyne Crowe:

And I say all because it was always two or three.

Daniella Drake:

There were three. Yeah, there were three pretty much every time.

Evelyne Crowe:

Every time.

Daniella Drake:

I feel like, yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

And they were all really enjoying themselves every time.

Daniella Drake:

For sure, yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

So yeah, definite plus for this story. And Ichabod just wanting to get laid by Brom Bones.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, pretty sure that's the whole point of this, is that he was just wishing to be a part of it. And then he gets his wish.

Evelyne Crowe:

And then Brom Bones is like, "So you've been watching us. We've noticed." And Ichabod, of course, is like, "What?" Because he has not been exactly subtle.

Daniella Drake:

No, not even close.

Evelyne Crowe:

He has not been subtle and everyone's noticed. So of course, Brom Bones is like, "Yeah, you're next." And so he was next.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. And he took his turn in the shower.

Evelyne Crowe:

He did. And the end of the story is you understanding that it was not the last time.

Daniella Drake:

Yes. Yeah. It was unexpected, but fun.

Evelyne Crowe:

It was. And it was an interesting take on the myth.

Daniella Drake:

It really was, actually. I thought she was very creative.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah.

Daniella Drake:

I actually really liked too, that satirically, she uses a lot of euphemisms for male parts, which I thought was hilarious.

Evelyne Crowe:

Dude, I actually wrote it down because it made me laugh out loud in the very beginning, where it was like, "My trouser soldier wanted to come out and salute."

Daniella Drake:

I know, there were so many good ones.

Evelyne Crowe:

It made me laugh out loud, and I was like, "Trouser soldier?" And it was just... Oh my God.

Daniella Drake:

There were so many though.

Evelyne Crowe:

I know. And she was in Ichabod's brain. It wasn't C.M. Nascosta anymore, it was Ichabod. And I was just like-

Daniella Drake:

Exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

"Oh my God, trouser soldier? What the fuck?"

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

But she didn't stop with soldier. She had to continue the metaphor with salute.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. Oh, my God. There were so many good ones it was so funny. I thought it was hilarious. But also, I appreciated it because it was such like being in Ichabod's head was kind of dour.

Evelyne Crowe:

It was.

Daniella Drake:

He's a downer.

Evelyne Crowe:

He was. In every myth though, he always is.

Daniella Drake:

I know.

Evelyne Crowe:

He's always this straight-laced kind of person.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. So it was nice to have this kind of humorous thing that kind of elevates it a little bit and you're like, "Okay, I don't have to take it quite so seriously." Yeah, I thought it was really funny.

Evelyne Crowe:

Well, especially because he not only looked down upon himself, you feel like he looks down on everyone.

Daniella Drake:

Everyone. Yeah, for sure. He does, for sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

Because the way he talks about the women who are extorting him essentially for their children or whatever, or the housewives who are bored and not getting attention, you're just reading it, just going, "Ugh."

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. I did not like the way he talked about anyone, himself included, across the board. I was like, "You are just not a good person."

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes. So as a narrator, he left a lot to be desired.

Daniella Drake:

For sure. For sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes. So again, the degradation in this case, well-deserved. Yeah, just Well-deserved. But again, not everyone's kink.

Daniella Drake:

No.

Evelyne Crowe:

But for those of you who enjoy it.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, right. Oh, yeah. If you're into that, this is the story for you.

Evelyne Crowe:

Absolutely.

Daniella Drake:

For sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

Abso-fucking-lutely.

Daniella Drake:

And I'm not into it, but I still enjoyed this story.

Evelyne Crowe:

He is a very good slut for Brom Bones.

Daniella Drake:

Yes, for sure. Yes. And whoever the third, Julian is.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, he just kind of remains nameless.

Daniella Drake:

We don't know who he is.

Evelyne Crowe:

But he has a good time.

Daniella Drake:

He does. He does. So what more can you ask for?

Evelyne Crowe:

It's true. Now, the second story is a very different, different-

Daniella Drake:

Very different, for sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

And it's much more a ghost story and much eerier and darker.

Daniella Drake:

Yes. And I would say it's much more of a slow burn, for sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes. And also, it kind of leaves you kind of going, "Ooh."

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, no, I really liked it, actually.

Evelyne Crowe:

It was enjoyable, yeah.

Daniella Drake:

For a Halloween story, I thought this was the perfect mix of creepy, ghost story, romance. This was such a good balance. I thought she did such a good job of setting up the atmosphere.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes.

Daniella Drake:

It's creepy, but it's still oddly cozy.

Evelyne Crowe:

It is. But at the same time, it kind of leaves you feeling unsettled. I felt unsettled at the end of this.

Daniella Drake:

Yes. No, I absolutely agree. I absolutely agree.

Evelyne Crowe:

So the second story is Katrina van Tassel and the headless horseman.

Daniella Drake:

Yes.

Evelyne Crowe:

And it starts off with her just talking about how comfortable she is with death. I mean, at the beginning.

Daniella Drake:

Yes.

Evelyne Crowe:

Just at the beginning. And it's told in the first person. So you're-

Daniella Drake:

It's her story. She is the protagonist. Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

I can't even describe the difference in tone.

Daniella Drake:

It's whiplash.

Evelyne Crowe:

It is.

Daniella Drake:

Because I finished the first one and immediately started the second one, and I actually had to put it down and come back after like an hour, because I was like, "This is too different. I need to get in the right headspace."

Evelyne Crowe:

It's true. It's really different. And I remember doing kind of the same thing. It was like, "Wait, whoa. Wait a minute."

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, it was not what I expected.

Evelyne Crowe:

It took me longer than an hour. I think I put it down, and I didn't pick it up again until we decided to read it for the podcast.

Daniella Drake:

Oh, wow. Okay.

Evelyne Crowe:

Because it was such a different... So different.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, the vibes were entirely different.

Evelyne Crowe:

I was just like, "Okay, wow. Okay, wow."

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. I will be honest, I enjoyed this story more. I know it's going to be shocking to you.

Evelyne Crowe:

A slow burn? What?

Daniella Drake:

I love a slow bird, I know. But I also really liked Katrina. I loved her independence, I loved her ambition, I loved that she was not afraid to go after what she wanted. The whole first scene basically is her talking about being this teacher for girls and stuff, and how it does create kind of a dangerous situation for her, because men don't like educated women, and there's this whole thing. And I was like, "Yeah, girl, go get it. Get it. I love this for you."

Evelyne Crowe:

I know. And she's not a virgin. She's not married, she's not a virgin, and she's not ashamed of that in a time-

Daniella Drake:

100%.

Evelyne Crowe:

... where whenever you read books like this or stories like this, women who are single and doing this job in particular, and are unmarried, are always depicted as virgins.

Daniella Drake:

Absolutely, 100%. Yes, that's exactly... And she is just very sexually open and she's having sex regularly with Brom Bones.

Evelyne Crowe:

I know.

Daniella Drake:

And she doesn't even like him.

Evelyne Crowe:

She doesn't even like him. And to be honest, I don't think she's enjoying it that much.

Daniella Drake:

I don't think so either.

Evelyne Crowe:

Because Brom Bones I don't think is very good at it.

Daniella Drake:

I think that's the main problem. He doesn't care if she's enjoying it or not, and that's the main issue.

Evelyne Crowe:

She knows that it's supposed to be good, and she enjoys most of this.

Daniella Drake:

She gets some enjoyment out of it, but she's not-

Evelyne Crowe:

She enjoys it the way you enjoy it leading up to an orgasm. It feels good. It's not like it's bad. It's not forced.

Daniella Drake:

Sure, but she is not reaching climax.

Evelyne Crowe:

She's not climaxing, yeah.

Daniella Drake:

For sure. There's no way.

Evelyne Crowe:

I'm not saying it's bad sex, but it's not good sex.

Daniella Drake:

Right, yes.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's not mind-blowing sex.

Daniella Drake:

It's enough to scratch the itch, but it's not necessarily fulfilling.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah. It's the kind of sex you have and go, "I need to go jerk off after this because I didn't get there."

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, exactly.

Evelyne Crowe:

So it's like, "Okay, I got-"

Daniella Drake:

But I liked that there was this kind of freedom almost. She wasn't afraid of it, she wasn't ashamed of it. It was just like, "This is a part of being who I am."

Evelyne Crowe:

Right. And she even talks about having to live in different houses with all these different men and having to decide which houses to live at and which men were safe. And it was just like, "Oh."

Daniella Drake:

Well, there's a whole scene where she's in the stables and one of the guys comes out and she's like, "Oh, I'm going to have to jerk this guy off," because that's just the way it works.

Evelyne Crowe:

And I just remember going [inaudible 00:28:01].

Daniella Drake:

I know. It was so gross. And she's just like, "This is the price you pay to be a free woman. Am I right?" And I'm like, "No."

Evelyne Crowe:

"No." I know, but it was just so normal for her. And I was just, "Oh man." And then when-

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, it didn't bother her at all.

Evelyne Crowe:

And then you first meet the horseman, and you have to understand, she is a person who can see ghosts. That's what she does. It's her skill, right?

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's a gift that she has. And she first had it as a child.

Daniella Drake:

Because her mom died in childbirth.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, or something.

Daniella Drake:

Is what we're supposed to take away, is she was so close to death herself that she is now able to see ghosts kind of.

Evelyne Crowe:

People would come and sit on her bed as a child and just stare at her, unless she would just got used to it. And I'm just like, "Well, that's creepy. I'm not okay with that. That scares the fuck out of me. I would not be okay with that. No." And she just was like, "Yeah, that happens on the regular."

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, she just accepts it as normal.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah. So she hears about the horseman, the headless horseman, and the ghost stories that are told about it and is like, "Maybe I'll see this guy. Maybe. Who knows?" And of course she does, because-

Daniella Drake:

I loved it though. I loved how she uses the story so cleverly, I thought, because it's like she hears this ghost story and she's heard all these ghost stories before, and she's like, "Whatever." Half of them are not true, and the other half are true enough, but you don't actually really see anything. So poo-poo, poo-poo, right? And then, so she's riding home one night and she hears the horse, and she's like, "Oh, wait, this could be bad." And he just escorts her.

Evelyne Crowe:

Well, no. She runs the first time.

Daniella Drake:

She runs the first time. That's true. That's true. She does run the first time.

Evelyne Crowe:

Because like any normal human, she does panic the first time.

Daniella Drake:

Sure. Yeah, that's a normal reaction for sure.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes. But then she realizes, "Okay, I shouldn't have run, because if I run, he is going to chase me."

Daniella Drake:

Yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

That's what's going to happen because that's the story.

Daniella Drake:

That's the story.

Evelyne Crowe:

"So next time I won't run and we'll see what happens." And I'm like, "Dude, bruh."

Daniella Drake:

I know. I was like, "You're going to do what now? Are you crazy?"

Evelyne Crowe:

I literally, seriously, I was like, "Bruh, what?" So she does it. She walks.

Daniella Drake:

Doing her thing.

Evelyne Crowe:

And so that's their new routine. He just escorts her home after her school is done, and she just goes home and meets up with her, and it's just like that every day. And it's just like a normal boyfriend meeting her every day, except he has no head and he's dead.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. They can't talk, they can't interact, really. She talks to him. She spends a lot of time just chattering because she's uncomfortable. She's like, "I don't know. I don't know if you can even hear me. I'm going to try. I don't know."

Evelyne Crowe:

But I will say that the way Nascosta builds it up, it doesn't seem one-sided.

Daniella Drake:

No. I don't know how she did it, because he never once says anything. He kind of tips his hat at her once or twice.

Evelyne Crowe:

Like imaginary hat that doesn't exist.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, right. And that's kind of it. And this whole thing where he's obviously making the choice to escort her. You can tell that that is his choice, but there's no back and forth. It's just Katrina talking this whole time. And I don't know how she manages to make it feel like a true interaction between two people, but she does it.

Evelyne Crowe:

She does.

Daniella Drake:

She does it.

Evelyne Crowe:

And I remember the story is that the closer they get to Halloween, the more corporeal he is. And that the theory that she has, that Katrina has, is that he's looking for his head, like his head. That is her theory. That's not necessarily everyone's theory. That is-

Daniella Drake:

Well, and I think it's interesting, because she said it so close to the war that it's almost possible for him to find the head. Did you take that away too, where it's like the war has not happened that long ago, and so there is a possibility maybe that he would actually find his head?

Evelyne Crowe:

Right.

Daniella Drake:

And then be made whole.

Evelyne Crowe:

Right, yeah. So it was a whole thing, and it was just really interesting how she did this. And so here's Katrina, who's falling in love with a ghost, and the ghost is potentially, we think, falling in love with her. And we know this because at some point it kind of flips and you see her turning back and looking at him, and he's waiting for her as she goes across the graveyard and he's watching her walk away. And you can see him, you can feel it, you can feel that there's emotion there. So there's tension, and she's still sleeping with Brom Bones because she has needs that this ghost can't meet because he's not physical. He has no physical body.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. I mean, yeah, right.

Evelyne Crowe:

But this is where I run into issues. I hate Brom Bones so much.

Daniella Drake:

That's fair. He's kind of an ass.

Evelyne Crowe:

He is the worst. He's the worst because he's sleeping with Katrina, but he doesn't see her as someone who's worthy enough to be married to.

Daniella Drake:

No, he's actively courting a different girl who's from a wealthy family, who's got this society, like she's got the class that he wants to be a part of. And so Katrina is just kind of this side piece that he's like, "Well, I get to have sex with you. So I got to say no? Not really."

Evelyne Crowe:

But at the same time, he's possessive of her. It's a whole gross patriarchal bullshit thing that I do not like. I do not like Brom Bones. Ew, gross. And it's set up that way, I am sure, so that when the end happens, you don't feel bad about it. But at the same-

Daniella Drake:

100%, yes.

Evelyne Crowe:

... same time, I don't want to look at his face for the rest of my life because ew.

Daniella Drake:

I know. So, listen, I did not see the twist coming. I mean, I did and I didn't. I kind of knew how it was going to go because she sets it up so that you hate him so much. You're just like, "This guy is terrible. I hate him. I want him to go away." And then when the horseman finally... She sets it up, that final scene was so good, I thought, where she sets up Brom Bones to be-

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh, beautiful.

Daniella Drake:

... to be in the place that he was supposed to be so that the headless horseman could take his head and just move on. The whole thing about having him be a descendant, I thought that was so smart. The way she did it was so smart. But also, this guy is the worst dude, bro. And now-

Evelyne Crowe:

You're stuck with him.

Daniella Drake:

... you have to stare at his face.

Evelyne Crowe:

I just did not like that.

Daniella Drake:

I know. I did also find it funny that the headless horseman only spoke German. Dude, I thought it was so funny. She was like, "We'll work on that." I thought it was so good. I was like, "Well, of course he would only speak German. He's a Hessian. Yeah, that makes sense." Very realistic. I loved it.

Evelyne Crowe:

God. No. Yeah. No, I had a couple of things. It's mostly my own hangups that had nothing to do with anything else, but I would not personally enjoy looking at Brom Bones.

Daniella Drake:

I mean, I had an issue with them having sex because I was like, "Is he cold?"

Evelyne Crowe:

No, I just chose to think that he wasn't.

Daniella Drake:

Because that's my main hangup with vampires too. I'm just like, "I don't-"

Evelyne Crowe:

Ghosts are different. Ghosts are not vampires. They're different.

Daniella Drake:

That's true, that's true. And they seem to be having fun, so who am I to judge?

Evelyne Crowe:

I also enjoyed the fact that C.M. Nascosta also showed a whole scene where there was a whole dildo that she had made.

Daniella Drake:

Literally fashioned her own dildo out of a piece of wood.

Evelyne Crowe:

And leather.

Daniella Drake:

And leather, yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

So she wouldn't get splinters. And I'm like, "That's genius."

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, I know. I was like, "Oh, damn, girl. Get it."

Evelyne Crowe:

I was like, "Oh my God."

Daniella Drake:

This was very sexually proud and I appreciated that quite a bit for this time period especially, because that's not usually what you see.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's not, and I really enjoyed it.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. I actually really liked this second story. I thought that the vibes were really good. I thought that the description of the town was really interesting, and it made me feel like I was there. And I loved that, the covered bridge, I actually went into a deep dive about covered bridges and why we don't have them anymore.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah. No, it was great. I really liked the story, actually. The flaws that affected me didn't actually appear until the very end of the story.

Daniella Drake:

I mean, I thought that it was a really natural progression. The whole romance-

Evelyne Crowe:

That's the thing.

Daniella Drake:

They're together for weeks before anything actually happens. And when it finally does happen, it feels like the natural conclusion. It doesn't feel forced or made up or whatever. You're just like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense that this is how this plays out."

Evelyne Crowe:

Oh, for sure. And then even after that, she has to wait until the next year for him to be corporeal again.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, she waits around for months for him to come back.

Evelyne Crowe:

I mean, it's not a short period of time. She's sure about this.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

So I mean, props to her.

Daniella Drake:

I know. She's got a lot of patience.

Evelyne Crowe:

Holy shit.

Daniella Drake:

She's dedicated.

Evelyne Crowe:

Bam. Yeah. I mean, the only thing is they're just in my own personal hang-ups, it has nothing to do with the story. The story was well-crafted, it was well-written, it was well-plotted, it was really a great story. And again, the purpose though of it being a ghost story is I think to leave you unsettled.

Daniella Drake:

I think so too. And when it ends, you do feel like you're like, "Oh, okay."

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah, I think so.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. I think that is the purpose. It does feel like one of those stories that you tell by a campfire where you're like, "Oh my gosh, let me tell you about this headless horseman ghost."

Evelyne Crowe:

Exactly. I don't think it's one of those stories that you tell with an actual super happy ending. It's a happy ending, but at the same time, you're like [inaudible 00:39:48].

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. I mean, they killed the guy to make it a happy ending, which yeah.

Evelyne Crowe:

They killed the guy that isn't great that she has to look at now.

Daniella Drake:

I know.

Evelyne Crowe:

The whole premise is just [inaudible 00:40:05].

Daniella Drake:

I know. It is unsettling.

Evelyne Crowe:

So it's unsettling. So it makes sense for a ghost story, and I think that is perfect.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah. No, I think she nailed it. I thought this was really, really well done. Yeah. And I loved the characters. I know that we don't like Brom Bones, but I think that he served his purpose.

Evelyne Crowe:

Absolutely.

Daniella Drake:

He was there for a specific purpose and she nailed it. You don't like him the whole time, so when they do actually kill him, you're like, "Yeah, good riddance."

Evelyne Crowe:

Okay. Yeah, dude.

Daniella Drake:

I don't care. I don't care.

Evelyne Crowe:

He was out there because he was jealous.

Daniella Drake:

Right.

Evelyne Crowe:

He wasn't out there because he was out there for a noble reason. He was literally-

Daniella Drake:

No, 100%.

Evelyne Crowe:

... out there because he was-

Daniella Drake:

He was possessive.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yes.

Daniella Drake:

Yeah, that was the entire reason. He was feeling insecure and possessive, and so he followed her and she knew that was going to happen.

Evelyne Crowe:

Yeah.

Daniella Drake:

And she was like, "Well, he chose it. His choice. He didn't have to be out here at this time."

Evelyne Crowe:

Can I also-

Daniella Drake:

He knows the danger.

Evelyne Crowe:

... give props to the gossiping neighbor women? Because I love them, because otherwise she would never have known.

Daniella Drake:

No, it's so true though. She needed that piece of information. It was key-

Evelyne Crowe:

It was.

Daniella Drake:

... to making it all work.

Evelyne Crowe:

So there you go.

Daniella Drake:

So women save the day yet again.

Evelyne Crowe:

It's true. It's true.

Daniella Drake:

So next time we had to change it up a little bit. We did do Payback's a Witch. We were supposed to do it before this one.

Evelyne Crowe:

We did.

Daniella Drake:

But one of us has been working way too much, that would be me, and we just have not had time to record. So my bad, I'm sorry. But next time we will be discussing Payback's a Witch, and it's very cute, great fall vibes. Definitely cozy because it's me.

Evelyne Crowe:

Absolutely.

Daniella Drake:

So I can't wait to talk about that one next time. So join us for that. I am Daniella Drake.

Evelyne Crowe:

I'm Evelyne Crowe.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Intoxicated Literature. Drink well, friends.