Intoxicated Literature Podcast
A podcast with books, alcohol, and lots of laughter. Daniella and Evelyne are sisters who have always shared book recommendations with each other. Join us while we drink and discuss books in the paranormal romance, urban fantasy, and epic fantasy genres!
Intoxicated Literature Podcast
Queen and Conqueror
Evelyne and Daniella discuss Queen and Conqueror by Isabelle Olmo. Topics include representation of women in epic fantasy, whether or not spicy times have a place in epic fantasy, and who sent the ships?!
Announcer:
This is Intoxicated Literature.
Evelyne Crowe:
Hello, and welcome to Intoxicated Literature. I'm Evelyne Crowe.
Daniella Drake:
And I am Daniella Drake.
Evelyne Crowe:
Okay, today we're talking about actually one of my favorite epic fantasy reads. It is Queen and Conqueror by Isabelle Olmo.
Daniella Drake:
And before we get into it, just want to talk about what we're drinking tonight.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
I'm having wine.
Evelyne Crowe:
Wine.
Daniella Drake:
Wine!
Evelyne Crowe:
I'm also having wine. It is a dessert wine.
Daniella Drake:
Epic fantasy, wine.
Evelyne Crowe:
Wine.
Daniella Drake:
Can't go wrong.
Evelyne Crowe:
Nope. Perfect.
Daniella Drake:
And there will be spoilers.
Evelyne Crowe:
Complete spoilers. We'll spoil everything from start to finish, because that's how we do it. So, if you want to read the book first, stop now, go read the book, and come back later. That's a good thing about recordings; we'll be here later, so-
Daniella Drake:
Exactly.
Evelyne Crowe:
... do that.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
All right. And there are some spicy times, it's not spice-heavy, but we will be talking about some of that. And trigger warning for SA and some abuse, so just keep that in mind.
Daniella Drake:
Also, there will be swearing, we swear like sailors, and because we are Intoxicated Literature, we can't really filter it out.
Evelyne Crowe:
No, we kind of just say whatever pops into our head, sorry.
Daniella Drake:
It just happens and I'm sorry, not sorry.
Evelyne Crowe:
Okay.
Daniella Drake:
So, let's get into it.
Evelyne Crowe:
Okay. So, I'm going to start off by saying this was one of my top reads two years ago. When it was published, the year it was published, it was one of my top reads, because this actually was epic fantasy as epic fantasy.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, that makes sense.
Evelyne Crowe:
When you think epic fantasy, this is like-
Daniella Drake:
For sure, yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
... epic fantasy.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. This felt like Game of Thrones, but feminist.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah!
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
Even the quote on the back, I'm going to read it to you, because there is a quote on the back from the book, and it's like, "Men will never be ready for women like us, and it is not our job to ready them."
Daniella Drake:
That was one of my favorite moments in the book, for sure.
Evelyne Crowe:
That is the essence of this book.
Daniella Drake:
For sure, 100%, yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
It is a group of women going forth and doing politics in a male world, and just doing it.
Daniella Drake:
And doing it well.
Evelyne Crowe:
100%, absolutely.
Daniella Drake:
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
It's amazing.
Daniella Drake:
I felt a little bit bad for Almira. I felt like she got a bit unlucky in love, and then lucky in love, if that makes sense?
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes, but it took a while.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, because her first husband was kind of a dodo head.
Evelyne Crowe:
He was kind of a dodo head, but we don't meet him, and I don't think she really met him, really.
Daniella Drake:
I know! That's the thing, she professes to love him, but I don't think she really knew who he was.
Evelyne Crowe:
He was gone a lot of the time, fighting.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
And I think that she was around him enough to have a bedding, and have some intimate times with him.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
I don't know if it was even good intimate times with him.
Daniella Drake:
It seems not. A lot of her idea of intimate times was you lay back, take what they give you, and you're happy with it.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah, I agree.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, but-
Evelyne Crowe:
That's pretty much it, you lie back, you think of the Queen of England, and enjoy it.
Daniella Drake:
Pretty much. Her husband, Edgar, he was older, and also apparently in love with his twin. So, yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
But the good news is, is he dies right away.
Daniella Drake:
He does. He does. You don't even get to meet him in the book, he is dead.
Evelyne Crowe:
Gone, because they're at war. So, here's the thing. This book, it really is Game of Thrones, because it's all politics. So, if you don't like politics in a book, don't read this book.
Daniella Drake:
No, this will not be something you enjoy.
Evelyne Crowe:
I actually really enjoy politics, because I like thinking about things, and figuring things out. And the complexity of this was really intriguing for me, and I really enjoyed it.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, I agree.
Evelyne Crowe:
So, here's what I liked about the beginning of this book, because her husband is dead. They come and tell her that her husband is dead, and she is like, "Well, fuck. My husband is dead, I have this small country I have to take care of. I am now the leader of this country. My dad, my father, of another country, has raised me to be a leader of this country. What the fuck am I going to do? I'm going to marry the guy we're at war with, and I'm going to stop the fucking war."
Daniella Drake:
Yep.
Evelyne Crowe:
"I'm going to marry the guy who killed my husband, and I'm going to stop the fucking war, because that is what needs to happen."
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
The first 100 pages, I actually counted, it's like 77, 80, it's somewhere around there. It's like the first 100 pages is her just planning how she's going to meet this guy.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
It's crazy.
Daniella Drake:
I know! It reminds me of, there was an actual historical figure, a woman, whose husband was killed in a battle, and she offered marriage to whoever it was that killed her husband, and they got married, and she brought all of her people, killed his entire retinue, all of his army and whatever, and took over. And this reminded me of that, in a way, just because historically accurate. And I can't remember what her name was, I would have to Google it, but I know that it happened in history, because I remember reading about it and being like, "You get them. You go, girl."
Evelyne Crowe:
100%, 100%.
Daniella Drake:
Because part of it is, and this book is very feminist, but part of it is wrestling with the gender roles that we are assigned.
Evelyne Crowe:
That's the thing, is her dad raised her to be a ruler, but her dad isn't prepared for her to be a ruler.
Daniella Drake:
No. Even he says at one point is, "I raised you like a son and now you speak like a king." Is a direct quote. And even he is wrestling with the idea that a woman could be smart enough to know the intricacies of policy and politics and rule.
Evelyne Crowe:
Exactly.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
And so he was really having a hard time with that, because one of the last conversations she had with him, they were having a fight, actually.
Daniella Drake:
They were having a fight, yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
A big fight.
Daniella Drake:
Because he done fucked up.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yep.
Daniella Drake:
Yep.
Evelyne Crowe:
And so it was hard for him to see her as a... Because she was a force, she is a force.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. She's only 23, 21?
Evelyne Crowe:
I know.
Daniella Drake:
Something like that. She's young, and she is standing up to these lords who have been in power for years, and she's saying, "No, no, it's my time now." And they don't know what to do with that.
Evelyne Crowe:
They don't, they have no idea. But she feels she's earned it. She's like, "Look, I have laid under this guy with no reward, pleasure or otherwise, I don't have a child even-"
Daniella Drake:
Exactly.
Evelyne Crowe:
"... to prove it. I have a country. Okay, maybe small, but it's going to be taken over by this other country."
Daniella Drake:
Yep.
Evelyne Crowe:
"I have no reward to show for this marriage."
Daniella Drake:
Exactly.
Evelyne Crowe:
"What the fuck am I supposed to do with this?"
Daniella Drake:
Yep.
Evelyne Crowe:
"So, you sit your asses down and you shut up."
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. "Let me figure this out!" Exactly.
Evelyne Crowe:
It's amazing, actually, to see her just stand up and go, "Look." Because it's what I think every medieval woman wanted to say in the face of everything they had to face.
Daniella Drake:
I agree.
Evelyne Crowe:
If you think of Eleanor of Aquitaine-
Daniella Drake:
100%, that is exactly who I was thinking of, where she just rides up and is like, "You know what? You're all fucking this up. Let me just do it, because then I know it's going to be done right."
Evelyne Crowe:
Right? This is a woman of color writing this, and I know it's very white-centered to say that, Eleanor of Aquitaine, but that's who I thought of.
Daniella Drake:
No, same. Same.
Evelyne Crowe:
I was just like, this woman really just sacrificed all of her pleasure, she sacrificed her virginity, she sacrificed everything to be married to this man in a political marriage, and he died. For what?
Daniella Drake:
She didn't even know there was pleasure to be had.
Evelyne Crowe:
Mm-mm.
Daniella Drake:
That's a whole scene later in the book, which is like Alton going, "Yes, there's more. Let me show you."
Evelyne Crowe:
"Surprise!"
Daniella Drake:
Exactly! And the fact that she had no idea-
Evelyne Crowe:
I know.
Daniella Drake:
... that that was even possible.
Evelyne Crowe:
Possible.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
I know. So, fuck her old husband.
Daniella Drake:
Exactly.
Evelyne Crowe:
I'm really glad he's dead.
Daniella Drake:
Good riddance, goodbye.
Evelyne Crowe:
Absolutely. I will say that she is incredibly... I did identify with her a little bit, just because I am very much like her, in that I am very methodical and I'm very much planning-based.
Daniella Drake:
For sure.
Evelyne Crowe:
I will plan everything to the minutest detail. And then it's all fucking fucked up, because she went on that fucking horse in that fucking armor, and got overheated, and then had to ride in front of her betrothed and look like a weakling. And I died.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, I was laughing. That whole first meeting, actually, made me laugh quite a bit.
Evelyne Crowe:
I was dying that whole time!
Daniella Drake:
Because both of them were obviously playing parts, and you could tell that they were both playing parts, but neither of them could see it. And I'm just like, "Both of y'all are dumb."
Evelyne Crowe:
It was so funny.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
Oh my God. Cracked me up.
Daniella Drake:
But I loved it because she so carefully crafted this image that she wanted to portray, and then of course it was just-
Evelyne Crowe:
Completely blown out of the water.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
Ruined.
Daniella Drake:
Because practicality. Of course you're not going to be wearing a giant costume, and it's too hot, and you're on a horse, and you're not used to riding a horse for days. And there are all these practical things that she just didn't think about, and then got her into trouble.
Evelyne Crowe:
Oh my God, it was hilarious. I died. It was so funny.
Daniella Drake:
I will say, though, her dress sounded phenomenal.
Evelyne Crowe:
Oh God, it sounded beautiful.
Daniella Drake:
Right? And then they created this kind of half armor, half formal gown look, that I'm sure was really impressive.
Evelyne Crowe:
I'm sure it was. She almost passed out.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
But the snarkiness between the two of them, too. They could not stand each other.
Daniella Drake:
Actually, that was one of my favorite parts of this book, was the way that Alton especially would just needle her, because she was so, in his mind, cold and calculated and collected, and he just wanted to see her look normal, like a normal human being, without her defensive walls up, without her calculating happening. And so he was constantly just needling at her, and trying to get her to give him a rise out of her that he just desperately wanted to see, which was hilarious, because he was good at it.
Evelyne Crowe:
Oh, God, he was so good at it. Oh my God.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
He was so good at getting a rise out of her.
Daniella Drake:
So good at it, yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
His whole existence was how to get out of being king.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
His whole existence, every day, was, "How can I procrastinate this meeting? How can I escape this, and not do that?" And so to her mind, to a person who feels that responsibility is their duty, to them... So, for her, she sees him as some flake, as someone who is just-
Daniella Drake:
Kind of just a partier, and she's just like, "You're not worth my time." Right?
Evelyne Crowe:
And so now we have opposites attract kind of thing going on. But not even that, it's literally just opposites just bouncing off of each other. And I love the fact they have dinner with each other every day.
Daniella Drake:
His requirement.
Evelyne Crowe:
I know.
Daniella Drake:
Oh my God, I've got the hiccups.
Evelyne Crowe:
Okay, drunkard.
Daniella Drake:
I know. Hey, this is Intoxicated Literature, I am taking one for the team.
Evelyne Crowe:
No, but they do it. His requirement, they have dinner every day. And it's just the most awkward thing ever.
Daniella Drake:
I thought it was so odd. It was actually really funny, because when they were negotiating the treaty that would make their marriage formal, and him saying, "Okay, but you have to eat with me every night." And I remember thinking at the time how odd that he would request that of her, because he also then would have to spend every night with her. What a weird thing to want.
Evelyne Crowe:
But then at the same time though, I'm going, "Huh."
Daniella Drake:
Mm-hmm. Why?
Evelyne Crowe:
Why?
Daniella Drake:
Exactly. And that's what I was also thinking, is, "Okay, but why?"
Evelyne Crowe:
But we also have around her... I keep saying her, but she does have a name. Almira. She has women. It's all women.
Daniella Drake:
Red Guard! Her Red Guard were awesome.
Evelyne Crowe:
Oh my God.
Daniella Drake:
Loved it. Their introduction, actually, was so perfect, because they're trying to recruit more women to fight for their cause. Women only. Their leader is a total badass. Sanaa?
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah.
Daniella Drake:
Is that how we're saying her name? Okay.
Evelyne Crowe:
I think so, yes.
Daniella Drake:
I think so too. She's a total badass. She's been saved by Almira from a marriage she didn't want, and now she is all in on Almira. She is like, "We are cousins. I love you like family. I will protect with my life." She's trying to get all these women. And her literal cousin joins her guard.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah. She runs away from home.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. Shaves her head, does the whole thing. And it's just like-
Evelyne Crowe:
And it had a whole hazing thing, where she has to fight all of the guard as a whole hazing ritual.
Daniella Drake:
And I don't know if you thought this, but I remember thinking, "Girl, you are not ready for this. You are not prepared."
Evelyne Crowe:
And I'm sure that's what the guard was thinking too, because they're fighting, and they're just like, "Okay, we'll fight this girl, but are you sure about this?"
Daniella Drake:
"She's not ready."
Evelyne Crowe:
But she joins, and she ends up learning a lot.
Daniella Drake:
A lot. And I think that that was something that even Almira, she was pissed when she found out. But even she, at the time, was thinking, how can she be a leader if she doesn't understand how all this works?
Evelyne Crowe:
Guess what book two is about?
Daniella Drake:
Oh, is it about Hira?
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah.
Daniella Drake:
Oh, that's so good! I really liked Hira. I didn't necessarily liked her point of view. I kind of wish that it just stuck with Almira's point of view throughout the book. I didn't think that it added much to switch. But, that said, I still loved that she was rebelling, and trying to be more than what she was raised as, and trying to be better. So, I'm super excited that the next book is for her. That's really, really good. That's awesome.
Evelyne Crowe:
The Queen of Istok.
Daniella Drake:
I was already going to read the second book.
Evelyne Crowe:
It was like you were in the politics of a palace, but with women.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
And it was really good.
Daniella Drake:
Absolutely agree.
Evelyne Crowe:
I really, really enjoyed that. And the Red Guard was an especially good add to it. And I hate to keep comparing it to Game of Thrones, but that's the only thing we have that people understand what it is.
Daniella Drake:
Absolutely agree. I wish there was another thing I could compare it to.
Evelyne Crowe:
I know, I know.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because that's just the most common, popular fantasy that we have. But if you think about the Whitecloaks in the Game of Thrones, that is what the Red Guard would be. Except they are not required to be celibate. She is not requiring them to do that. So, when we first meet Sanaa, I think we were saying, she is in a brothel with a woman having a good time.
Daniella Drake:
Having a good time, yep. And I love that for her.
Evelyne Crowe:
I know.
Daniella Drake:
And so many of the guards at the castle in Suid, they're fully aware of who Sanaa is, and they're just like, she's just one of them, and they just kind of accept her the way she is. And I loved that. That made me so happy that it was just like, yep, we're all chasing a woman and looking for a good time.
Evelyne Crowe:
It was perfect.
Daniella Drake:
It was perfect.
Evelyne Crowe:
Perfect.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
It was very perfect. What did you think of Alton's backstory?
Daniella Drake:
I'll be honest, I felt... For me, it felt a little bit forced.
Evelyne Crowe:
I also agree. I'm not going to say I didn't disagree. I felt like it was forced a little bit. I felt like there needed to be a reason that he killed his brother in The Arena.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, for sure.
Evelyne Crowe:
That was the reason that was given.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. I'm not sure that it landed the way that it was supposed to.
Evelyne Crowe:
Agreed.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
However, I do think it gave a good reason for his behavior with her-
Daniella Drake:
Yes, absolutely agree. Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
... throughout the book.
Daniella Drake:
It explained a lot of his behavior in a way that was believable. So, that aspect worked for me. I just felt that there could have been another explanation, and it would've worked just as well without the trauma.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes, yes.
Daniella Drake:
What if he had just been plotting for an overthrow? Or there could have been so many things.
Evelyne Crowe:
He could have just been bullied.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. There were other ways that it could have played out, without having there to be sexual trauma. I don't know, I just-
Evelyne Crowe:
I know, I tend to agree with that.
Daniella Drake:
Not everyone needs sexual trauma.
Evelyne Crowe:
I also am grateful that the details were left out.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. I am so grateful that we didn't have to read any details. I was a little bit worried, when he started to confess to her, that we were going to get a detailed account. And for me, I was having a hard time.
Evelyne Crowe:
I know. But she does include trigger warnings in the beginning of the book.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I stuck with it, I didn't stop reading. And I'm glad that I did, because she doesn't actually explain every little detail, which was great.
Evelyne Crowe:
And he does say that it was an accident. It wasn't something that he was intending to do in The Arena.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
And I do believe that.
Daniella Drake:
I believe that too, yeah. I do believe that too.
Evelyne Crowe:
I do believe that. As a survivor of abuse, I do believe that-
Daniella Drake:
He did not go in there planning to murder his brother. It was more just to show him, "You don't have control over me."
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
As a survivor of abuse, I believe that if I went into an arena and faced my abuser, I'd be like, "I'm not planning on killing you today." And then I would find him dead at my feet later, and be like, "Well, fuck."
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. And the fact that he even says, "I don't even remember it happening."
Evelyne Crowe:
Again-
Daniella Drake:
Really does speak to that abuse.
Evelyne Crowe:
... I can see that being a realistic thing. So, while I do think that that felt something like-
Daniella Drake:
Unnecessary.
Evelyne Crowe:
... wasn't necessarily something we needed, I do feel like everything else about the story that's centered around that did fit.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, it felt realistic.
Evelyne Crowe:
Agreed.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. I agree with that, for sure. Yeah, yeah. I will say I was slightly disappointed that there wasn't more magic. I wanted-
Evelyne Crowe:
I know.
Daniella Drake:
... more magic. And it didn't really happen until 70% of the way through, which was a little bit disappointing. I remember even thinking at the 50% mark, is this a fantasy?
Evelyne Crowe:
It's a fantasy because it's a made-up world.
Daniella Drake:
Right, and then that's what I was thinking. I was like, "So, is this just an alternate place? That's cool, that's fine." But I was just like, "I thought there was going to be some magic." And then there is.
Evelyne Crowe:
But that's also very similar to the Game of Thrones.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because there's not a lot of magic in that either.
Daniella Drake:
Absolutely true. Absolutely valid. So, again, I stuck with it. And then eventually you meet the witch, and she comes through the fire, and you're like, "Okay, now there's magic! That's not normal!" But I will say too, the world building, I could have used more of. I didn't really understand how the magic system worked. I didn't understand what the rules were. I didn't understand what the limits were. A lot of it was just talking about the old ways, and how it's dismissed a lot, and that kind of thing. I could have used a little bit more discussion about that.
Evelyne Crowe:
I agree. And I remember in the beginning when she was like, "Did you pray over the making of the sword?" Like this blacksmith, and then she couldn't cut herself on the sword. And it was like, "Oh, it's true, a sword to protect the queen can't hurt the queen." And I'm like, "Okay, well, I would like more lore." Look, I am a whore for lore.
Daniella Drake:
For lore! I wanted more lore.
Evelyne Crowe:
I will take all of the fucking lore that you will throw at me. I am serious.
Daniella Drake:
100%. And I was thinking a lot of... There were definitely periods through when I was reading this book where I was like, "I need more lore. I need to understand how this world works. I don't really understand the rules."
Evelyne Crowe:
I love the politics and everything, and that's great, but I'm also in it for the fantasy aspect.
Daniella Drake:
Exactly. And I felt like that was a little bit more on the back burner than it was setting up the politics and giving backstory into who was at war with whom. Which is fine, that is important information. But I need to know what the rules of the universe are to make sure that everything is following those rules. And I didn't get that, which was why it's not a five star read.
Evelyne Crowe:
That makes sense.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
What did you think of Hester?
Daniella Drake:
I loved her. From the beginning, I loved her.
Evelyne Crowe:
Irreverent, could not give a fuck, but will make you a beautiful gown.
Daniella Drake:
100%. I loved her so much. She did not take anyone's shit, she was old and past caring what anyone thought. Her story was so sad.
Evelyne Crowe:
I know.
Daniella Drake:
So sad.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
And I was glad that she found happiness in the end. Yeah, I just really loved her, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Did we suspect that Poelia or whatever her name is, was alive?
Evelyne Crowe:
I did.
Daniella Drake:
I did as well.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
Because you never saw a body.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
There was no talk of, "We did a big burial, whatever, whatever." It was always like, "My grandmother died." And that was kind of it.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes. I am a firm believer in if you don't see a body in a book, they can come back at any time.
Daniella Drake:
I absolutely subscribe to that as well.
Evelyne Crowe:
I've read a lot of books. So, if I don't see a body, I just assume that they can come back at any time.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, I absolutely agree, and that's how I felt about this. I did think, though, that the way that she was brought back was really sweet. Having Alton be her protector humanized him in a really good way. And I thought that it was really, really lovely.
Evelyne Crowe:
It did, and it really did make him a person. It finally unified the two of them.
Daniella Drake:
It made him human in her eyes. She had seen him only as a king, and not a very good one up to that point.
Evelyne Crowe:
[inaudible 00:25:34] was like, "What the fuck do I need to go to a war council for? That's what they're for. I don't need to be there."
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, exactly. Also, bringing that up, can we talk about Hestian for a minute, and how just terrible he was from the very beginning? She set it up very well, in that you knew that Arrigo and Hestian were going to be a problem, right?
Evelyne Crowe:
Oh, from the beginning.
Daniella Drake:
The two of them from the beginning. I did not realize that Arrigo was going to be quite so crazy, but I knew he was a bad dude.
Evelyne Crowe:
It got real weird toward the end.
Daniella Drake:
It really did. It took a turn. And I was like, "Damn, okay." They're raping people and things are-
Evelyne Crowe:
I know, I know!
Daniella Drake:
This is not what I thought was going to happen.
Evelyne Crowe:
Again, trigger warnings in the front of the book.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, yes. Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
Make sure you read the trigger warnings.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
But no, you're reading towards the end of the book and you're just going, "What the fuck is going on?"
Daniella Drake:
And there were a couple of times where she was looking at his face and she's like, "Wow, he's really a lunatic." And I'm like, "What the fuck? Where did this come from?" Because that wasn't set up that well in the beginning. You knew he was calculating, you knew he was gunning for the throne, but you didn't quite realize how-
Evelyne Crowe:
Because she didn't either.
Daniella Drake:
... crazy, right.
Evelyne Crowe:
And I think this goes back to a non-trustworthy narrator.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, yes. Unreliable.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah!
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
And so you're just seeing it through these other people's eyes, and they're new to the country, they don't know these people.
Daniella Drake:
And even Alton is like, "Yeah, that guy's annoying." But he doesn't think that he's-
Evelyne Crowe:
But he's not involved.
Daniella Drake:
Right, yeah, exactly.
Evelyne Crowe:
He doesn't know what the fuck's going on, because he's fucking off. So, all of a sudden, this guy's like, "I can do whatever the fuck I want." But then, all of a sudden, he can't. And that is what flips his trigger.
Daniella Drake:
Yep!
Evelyne Crowe:
And then you're just like, "What?"
Daniella Drake:
"What?"
Evelyne Crowe:
"What's happening?"
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, exactly. Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
And then you're in a whole other book. It really does feel like you're in a whole other book.
Daniella Drake:
I was going to say, that last 30%, you're just like, "Where am I? This is not what I was reading before." I will say when she decides to go see her supposedly dying husband. And I'm just like, "Girl, what are you doing? This is obviously a trap. What the fuck are you doing? You can't leave the castle!" And she does it anyway. And of course she's like, "Oh shit, we've been outmaneuvered." And it's like, "You think?" I was so frustrated with her!
Evelyne Crowe:
You're smarter than this, what the fuck are you doing?
Daniella Drake:
Just because someone steps out of a fire, you're going to just do whatever they say? Come on!
Evelyne Crowe:
"Oh my God, they're magic, I have to listen to them."
Daniella Drake:
Exactly.
Evelyne Crowe:
I don't know. If someone stepped out of a fire, I'd be like, "You need to get the fuck out of my house."
Daniella Drake:
Exactly! That's what I'm saying! That was my first thought.
Evelyne Crowe:
Where is my smudging stick? I need to be-
Daniella Drake:
Exactly, yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
... like, "Hello? Goodbye."
Daniella Drake:
100%. "I'm not listening to anything you say, la, la, la, la, la, la." And instead she just goes, "Oh, I got to go be with him." And it's like, what are you doing?
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah, no, she got real questionable towards the end.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
But love does that to people.
Daniella Drake:
And I was just going to say that actually is realistic, because if you thought that your loved one was dying, of course, of course you're going to go try to be with them at the end.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah, that's the thing.
Daniella Drake:
Of course. So, fine.
Evelyne Crowe:
I guess we can let her go-
Daniella Drake:
I guess.
Evelyne Crowe:
... be involved, it's fine.
Daniella Drake:
Be a person.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah. So overall, I feel like it felt realistic in a fantasy setting.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, I agree. Yeah, I think so too. And she was, I do feel like... And there were some conversations with her dad where I felt that it was super, super realistic, where she was talking and it's like, he goes, "I raised you to be a son, and now you're talking like a king." And she's like, "Maybe we can get away with gender roles, and then we don't have to say what's appropriate and what's not, we don't have to say that certain actions are male or female. Maybe they're just human." And I was like, "Thank you."
Evelyne Crowe:
Thank you.
Daniella Drake:
That's the way it should be. We're all just people, and some people think differently than others, and that's fine. That doesn't necessarily mean that men are better at math and science than women. Women just aren't given the opportunity. So, maybe if you gave women the opportunity to rule, you'd find that they were actually better at it.
Evelyne Crowe:
Right? God.
Daniella Drake:
But I will say, though, that I did feel some empathy for her dad when she full on slaps him in the face.
Evelyne Crowe:
Dude, just right across the face.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. And I was like, okay. But also, I kind of understand where he's coming from too.
Evelyne Crowe:
Right smack across the face. I don't hit-
Daniella Drake:
I know! That's the thing. I am a pacifist, I do not believe in violence.
Evelyne Crowe:
I would leave the room if I felt like I was going to hit somebody.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, exactly.
Evelyne Crowe:
I would not hit somebody.
Daniella Drake:
That is not my path of choice.
Evelyne Crowe:
But she was in mourning.
Daniella Drake:
And I do understand... Hiding a living relative you thought was dead? That's fair, I would be upset too.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah!
Daniella Drake:
Yeah! And that's the thing, is I am a pacifist, but to a point. I will defend myself if it comes to it.
Evelyne Crowe:
And we have to also, though, be like, "Okay, so, I may be a pacifist, but this character-"
Daniella Drake:
Is not.
Evelyne Crowe:
"... is not a pacifist."
Daniella Drake:
For sure, yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
And I feel like if she were trained in sword fighting, she would be stabbing people all the fucking over the place.
Daniella Drake:
But it just made me sad because it was such a abrupt ending to a really loving relationship. You could tell that he really did love her, and he was struggling with his own mental health in a way that... And I'm not saying this was fair to her, because it was not. She became his anchor, which wasn't fair to her. She lost her mom too, and she should have been able to grieve and be her own person. And that's not necessarily what happened.
Evelyne Crowe:
But he does send ships. Someone does send ships later on.
Daniella Drake:
Not him. Oh, he's captured right away. He's banished, but he gets captured right away, and is tortured for a long time without her knowing. Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah, I remember that.
Daniella Drake:
Which actually, this is why I actually thought of the Game of Thrones comparison. It's because she prays that her husband will be well, and she says to the gods, "Take whoever you need."
Evelyne Crowe:
And then he's tortured, yeah.
Daniella Drake:
And so they take her father. And she even acknowledges, "I brought this on myself. I said, 'Take who you need to.' And they took him."
Evelyne Crowe:
No, but after she's married and she needs more help, doesn't her father, or her cousin, or somebody... Somebody sends Istok's-
Daniella Drake:
When she comes back to the city that's been taken, her uncle shows up for her.
Evelyne Crowe:
Maybe it's her uncle.
Daniella Drake:
And her aunt sends ships, but her dad's been captured.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah, her dad's out of the picture.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, so, I just finished it yesterday, which is why I know.
Evelyne Crowe:
Thank God, because-
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, this is why I try so hard to read them as close to these episodes as possible, because it's so hard.
Evelyne Crowe:
I did look through it.
Daniella Drake:
No, no, no-
Evelyne Crowe:
I'm very fresh on some things.
Daniella Drake:
It's just so hard because we read so many books that they all kind of blend together, and you're like, "Wait, am I thinking of the right one?"
Evelyne Crowe:
So, her uncle came, and then [inaudible 00:33:58].
Daniella Drake:
Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
I knew someone from Istok sends her ships. Yes, yes.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I do wonder, and this is why I want to read the second one, because they set this up very well, because they light the thing at the top, kind of the beacons of Gondor, right? But they light that, whatever it is, to let her aunt know that her dad is dead. And I want to know how that plays out, because this guy is a drunkard. And he's like, "No, this is the only thing I have to do with my life. I have to get this done." And this tavern owner is like, "All right, I guess I'll get you there. I don't know, fine."
Evelyne Crowe:
No, I read the beginning, and it's actually... I'll tell you just the beginning. And Hira gets onto this boat, and the captain is like, "Who the fuck are you?"
Daniella Drake:
Oh, no!
Evelyne Crowe:
And she's like, "Who the fuck are you?" And they have this whole fight, and then the captain realizes she's the heir to the throne of Istok.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. Perfect, I love it. I love it.
Evelyne Crowe:
And then he's like, "Oh, shit."
Daniella Drake:
I love it so much. Because so much of this book is her figuring out that she can stand on her own two feet.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah, there's a whole thing where I think they actually have a fight, because she's practiced, and she knows what she's doing now.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, yeah, so good.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah, there's a whole thing.
Daniella Drake:
Okay. So, when I read it, that'll be good, that'll be good.
Evelyne Crowe:
But yeah, the captain was like, "What the fuck did I just do? That's the heir to the throne of Istok."
Daniella Drake:
Oh, man.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah.
Daniella Drake:
So good. Yeah, I definitely did enjoy this book. It was definitely what I wanted, an epic fantasy. Obviously, the first book in epic fantasy is a lot of setup, because you have a lot of world building to do, characters to introduce. I remember reading Game of Thrones for the first time and thinking, "Who are all these fucking people?"
Evelyne Crowe:
It's so funny when I read reviews for Game of Thrones, the first book, because everyone is always like, "I don't know who anybody is."
Daniella Drake:
I know! It's so true.
Evelyne Crowe:
And I'm like, nobody knows who anybody is in the first book of a fucking fantasy, nobody.
Daniella Drake:
No.
Evelyne Crowe:
Nobody knows.
Daniella Drake:
No. There are too many, that's why it's epic fantasy, because it's so spread out, there are so many things to learn, there are so many rules, there are so many people, there are so many houses.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yep. That is why it's called "epic" fantasy.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because there are so many... The cast of characters is huge.
Daniella Drake:
For sure. And that's exactly what this was, and it was perfect. So, I definitely enjoyed it. I will read the second one, for sure. I loved that it was so woman-forward.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
That was so great for me. There were spicy times.
Evelyne Crowe:
There were spicy times. They weren't until later. But again, given the backstory, that made total sense. Also, they didn't know each other, so also made sense.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was a little bit surprised that the spicy times were not as spicy as expected.
Evelyne Crowe:
They were a little closed door.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, which was surprising to me. I thought for sure, because of the way they were set up, that we were going to see everything. And then, no, that's not what happened.
Evelyne Crowe:
It was almost like-
Daniella Drake:
And I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just saying I was surprised.
Evelyne Crowe:
I would almost say that it's almost like Isabelle Olmo was respecting their privacy.
Daniella Drake:
Right? Yeah, that's kind of what it felt like.
Evelyne Crowe:
It did feel like that. But it's really funny, because it did feel like she was like, "I can't show this to everybody."
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
"I'm just going to let them do this." Isabelle Olmo, it did feel like she was just like respecting their privacy.
Daniella Drake:
They were finally overcoming this hurdle, and now they're coming together.
Evelyne Crowe:
Which I can respect.
Daniella Drake:
Absolutely, 100%. I was just surprised that that's how it went. I'm not saying that it was bad or good, I'm just saying that I was surprised that that's how it went. I think it worked, actually.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yeah, I think so too. But it also fits, and we're going to get into some controversial topics here.
Daniella Drake:
Uh-oh! Uh-oh!
Evelyne Crowe:
Prepare yourself. Because there are two very different camps when it comes to epic fantasy: there are people who think that epic fantasy should not ever have any graphic spice whatsoever, and then there are people who think that it's okay to have spice in epic fantasy. And I will let you guess what the gender is of the first one. And you only need one guess.
Daniella Drake:
I'm pretty sure I know the answer. This is the thing. And I actually think it's actually relevant right now, because a lot of Gen Z'ers are also talking about spice in TV and film, and how they don't want it.
Evelyne Crowe:
Interesting.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. And I will say this, is that sometimes, it is important to the plot and to character growth to have those scenes. And that's why, in this case, what we saw, the spice that we saw, which was spicy, was important, because it was showing intimacy, and it was showing their developing relationship and trust, which is very important for both of these characters.
Evelyne Crowe:
Agreed.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. And I think that that's true of TV and film as well. I don't think that everything needs to be gratuitous sex, I think that Game of Thrones especially is terrible at sexposition, which shouldn't even be a term, which pisses me off, but I digress. But I will say that sometimes it is necessary to show character growth.
Evelyne Crowe:
Why should you digress? This is actually a conversation that we should have regarding this, because this is epic fantasy with spice in it.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. And this is the thing, is that I think that Game of Thrones, the show, and the books, to some extent, use women as a plot device rather than characters.
Evelyne Crowe:
And in this case, with this epic fantasy, that is the opposite.
Daniella Drake:
I agree. I agree, for sure.
Evelyne Crowe:
And there is spice in it, and it's well done. And in fact, there is actual sexual assault in this book that we do not see, is not used as a plot device, just as a backstory, and it is still relevant to the plot.
Daniella Drake:
Exactly.
Evelyne Crowe:
We don't have to see it.
Daniella Drake:
No!
Evelyne Crowe:
It is not gratuitous, and it is still relevant, and it still matters, and it is still impactful.
Daniella Drake:
Exactly. And I would like to see a lot less of people, in general, using rape as a plot device crutch, which I feel like they use a lot where they don't know what to do with the women characters, especially.
Evelyne Crowe:
I agree.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
And it's like women don't have to be raped in order to have trauma. Why is that a thing that exists? There are so many other things going on that are so interesting and complex and-
Evelyne Crowe:
And I say this knowing that a lot of the writers are not just men.
Daniella Drake:
No, 100%. Absolutely agree. Absolutely agree.
Evelyne Crowe:
The misogyny comes from inside the house.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, exactly. And it's problematic, and it's-
Evelyne Crowe:
I appreciate-
Daniella Drake:
... far-reaching.
Evelyne Crowe:
One of the reasons why this was a top read for me a couple of years ago was because of the feminism. I appreciated not... I was sad for him, obviously, and his backstory, and I wish that... And I did feel that it was kind of shoehorned in, a little bit. But at the same time, it was not gratuitous, we did not get a detailed example of what happened. We did not get it in detail. You don't see it.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, I don't need to read that.
Evelyne Crowe:
We don't need to know. We just need to know it happened. That's it. And it happened to a male main character.
Daniella Drake:
Man. Yes. It was a different, unique way to bring that into the plot. I'm not saying I liked it better or worse, I'm just saying-
Evelyne Crowe:
It's not any better.
Daniella Drake:
... that it was different, yeah.
Evelyne Crowe:
But it is a way of bringing up kind of a spotlight on the fact that men are also-
Daniella Drake:
It happens to men as well, yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
... sexually assaulted.
Daniella Drake:
Yes, absolutely.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because that also happens.
Daniella Drake:
Yep. And they're a lot less likely to report it.
Evelyne Crowe:
Absolutely. So, that is also important.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, I agree, for sure. Yeah. And the way that he deals with it, I felt like his character was actually very realistic, and I was getting frustrated with him in the beginning, because he seemed so flighty and so annoying. And I was just like, "What is wrong with this guy?" And then when he opened up, I was like, "Oh, got it."
Evelyne Crowe:
That's the thing, is once you hear why you're like, "Oh. I forgive you everything."
Daniella Drake:
Yeah. And even before I heard the exact reason why he killed his brother, I knew there had to be some kind of extenuating circumstance. There had to be some reason that he would've gone in there and challenged him, right?
Evelyne Crowe:
Yes.
Daniella Drake:
And I didn't necessarily think this was the reason, but it made sense after it was explained. I still don't really love that sexual assault is used in this way. I think there could have been another explanation that still would've worked just as realistically.
Evelyne Crowe:
But at the same time, I was still sad for his brother, because that meant that, at some point, someone did it to him probably.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, I agree.
Evelyne Crowe:
Because of the cycle.
Daniella Drake:
Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
So, at some point, his brother was exposed to it.
Daniella Drake:
I agree with that. I had that same thought.
Evelyne Crowe:
So, let's just go, let's end this on a, he broke the cycle.
Daniella Drake:
Yes. Yes.
Evelyne Crowe:
And Almira was able to help him do that.
Daniella Drake:
Heal. Yes. Yes. Absolutely agree, for sure.
Evelyne Crowe:
Which is awesome.
Daniella Drake:
Oh, yeah. So awesome.
Evelyne Crowe:
So, I think that the budding romance between the two of them was completely realistic, and at the end, was amazing.
Daniella Drake:
Absolutely agree.
Evelyne Crowe:
And the ending was really tense.
Daniella Drake:
It was, it was very tense.
Evelyne Crowe:
I didn't know who was going to fucking win. I didn't know if anyone was going to win. I really didn't know if it was going to end on a fucking cliffhanger for a minute there.
Daniella Drake:
I actually thought that it might, and that it was going to pick up in the second book, which would've pissed me off, I'm not going to lie.
Evelyne Crowe:
I really would've been mad, and I would've fucking DMed her in her fucking TikToks and been like, "What the actual fuck did you do?"
Daniella Drake:
Why? Yeah, exactly. But I will say I'm glad that it ended the way that it ended. I'm glad that the Red Guard got to be kind of the heroes of the day, which was fucking awesome.
Evelyne Crowe:
I love the fucking Red Guard, man.
Daniella Drake:
Yeah, they're down to... I think there were only three of them left, but still phenomenal. And having her family respond to her call and send help, I thought that was amazing as well. I really did enjoy it. I thought the writing was really good. I thought the characters were really complex and interesting. It kept me invested, for sure.
Evelyne Crowe:
Absolutely. So, what is our next read?
Daniella Drake:
We are going back in time a little bit. We're going to read a classic epic fantasy, Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hobb, which was, I think, first published in 1995?
Evelyne Crowe:
Everyone should read this book if you like fantasy. This should be a required read.
Daniella Drake:
I agree. I agree. And I can't wait to talk about it, because it is such a classic, and it gets brought up quite often, and a lot of people don't realize that Robin Hobb is a woman.
Evelyne Crowe:
A woman.
Daniella Drake:
So, until next time, I am Daniella Drake.
Evelyne Crowe:
And I'm Evelyne Crowe.
Announcer:
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Intoxicated Literature. Drink well, friends.
