War of Two Queens

Daniella and Evelyne discuss A War of Two Queens by Jennifer L. Armentrout. Topics include how a good editor can help with confusing naming conventions, a new tattoo idea for Evelyne, and embracing the word "fat" as an acceptable descriptor. 

Transcript

Speaker 1:

This is Intoxicated Literature.

Daniella:

All right. Welcome to Intoxicated Literature. I'm Daniella Drake.

Evelyne:

And I'm Evelyne Crowe.

Daniella:

And tonight we're going to be talking about...

Evelyne:

The War of Two Queens.

Daniella:

That's right. That's right. I got to pull my notes up, that's why I got confused. There has been some wine. What are you drinking, Evelyne?

Evelyne:

I'm having an espresso martini in a jar, which means it's probably like six espresso martinis?

Daniella:

Oh my God, and you've had more than half of that thing.

Evelyne:

I know, I'm so drunk! I'm screwed. I'm actually really trying to remember the name of this author, which is so well known.

Daniella:

Oh, shit. Jennifer Armentrout. Yes.

Evelyne:

Yes! Thank you. I actually have her name written down.

Daniella:

By the way, there will be swearing.

Evelyne:

There will be swearing, there will be spoilers. And also, content warning for racism and fatphobia.

Daniella:

Yes. So all of those things. If none of those things appeal to you, please close this window.

Evelyne:

And vacate the premises.

Daniella:

And vacate the premise. Cease and desist. Get off my lawn. I don't know.

Evelyne:

Adult content, also.

Daniella:

Also, adult content. So swearing, spoilers, adult content, trigger warnings for fatphobia and racism.

Evelyne:

Yes.

Daniella:

And I think that was... Oh, I can't believe I remembered all of that!

Evelyne:

You did very well. I'm so proud of you.

Daniella:

I'm so proud. I'm so proud.

Evelyne:

Yes.

Daniella:

You know what? That deserves a drink.

Evelyne:

Cheers.

Daniella:

Hey!

Evelyne:

Cheers.

Daniella:

Okay, let's get into it.

Evelyne:

All right. So I made you read the entire series to get to this book.

Daniella:

You really did. You really did. And listen, I really enjoyed the world building in this. The first book, especially, I thought was really an interesting concept, and I enjoyed the spin on vampires and the spin on werewolves. It was a different thing that I hadn't seen before, and I really appreciated that. But I have to say, as I got into the series, there were some problems with plot. It was just distracting. And as I read on, I felt like the quality started to suffer a little bit. And listen, I understand the appeal of these books. I get it. I understand why people love them, why they're so hot on TikTok. I totally get it. And if you love them, that is so great. I love that, that you found something that you love. This was just not a series for me. It just didn't hit for me, for whatever reason.

Evelyne:

I will say that the first book, while the racism is there, the racism seems to get worse as the books go on? Which is not a good look.

Daniella:

No, it's a little problematic.

Evelyne:

So, while I did enjoy the first book a lot, and I also did enjoy the world building, and again, fresh take on vampires, the whole thing, I don't think I'll be reading the next book.

Daniella:

Yeah, I'm not. It was difficult. I started texting you when I was in the third book, and I was like, "I cannot read this." Partly because the pacing was an issue. I was having a hard time, because we would go through these long parts where nothing plot-related was happening, and there wasn't a lot of even character growth. I can get behind focusing on character stuff and not having a lot of plot. I love cozy fantasies. That is my favorite thing to read. And a lot of that is just character development.

Evelyne:

So she goes through... So let's talk about characters, because the first thing I have in my notes is Cassian. So from book one through book three-

Daniella:

It's not Cassian, it's Casteel.

Evelyne:

Casteel! I'm thinking of the other problematic author.

Daniella:

You are!

Evelyne:

Casteel. So, Casteel from books one through book three, is very alpha, very, "This is my woman, don't touch my woman. I am very alpha, bah." He's just very like that. He is captured in the end of book three, right? I think? Or the very beginning of book four, somewhere around there he is captured. And then all of a sudden, he loses that?

Daniella:

Yeah, it's kind of weird.

Evelyne:

It's kind of weird. And it's not that he is... He's captured, I understand that he is a prisoner. That is fine. I get that. But even after he's released, he doesn't have that, "I'm going to protect Poppy" anymore, or "She's my girl." It's like he's a different person.

Daniella:

Which I could understand if she explained it as trauma or something, but they just don't address it.

Evelyne:

They don't.

Daniella:

It's just kind of now he's this new-

Evelyne:

Person.

Daniella:

... person. And I'm like, "Okay, but that's not generally the way that people work."

Evelyne:

Yeah, it's weird.

Daniella:

Yeah.

Evelyne:

It's a weird thing to do with a character. They just gloss over that. She just kind of glosses over that.

Daniella:

I agree. I agree.

Evelyne:

Especially glosses over it, considering while he's a prisoner, he learns his brother is still alive, who he thought was dead this entire time. And that Poppy has a sister.

Daniella:

Yeah, who also is kick-ass. And I love her.

Evelyne:

I love her sister.

Daniella:

So much.

Evelyne:

And I want her sister to be the protagonist from now on.

Daniella:

I agree. I think that she is so much more interesting.

Evelyne:

Yes! She just has this sass and she just is so much better.

Daniella:

Also, her name is Millicent, which-

Evelyne:

I know!

Daniella:

... come on. I'm like, I would like just her story, thank you very much.

Evelyne:

She just seems to have this more political acumen than Poppy does, even though Poppy grew up in actual courts.

Daniella:

I do kind of understand that though, because I feel like she did talk a lot about how sheltered Poppy was. She was kept out of everything.

Evelyne:

I guess. That's true.

Daniella:

But that also makes her kind of boring as a character. I personally don't necessarily like-

Evelyne:

It's like the farm boy trope, right?

Daniella:

Yeah, exactly. I don't necessarily really respond well to this kind of sheltered upbringing, they're so naive and innocent. It just doesn't resonate with me. That doesn't mean that it's bad.

Evelyne:

Especially because in book one, she's trying not to be sheltered.

Daniella:

Right, yeah.

Evelyne:

She's sneaking into whorehouses and stuff, so she's being...

Daniella:

That first scene was fun. She's wearing her mask and she's like, "I'm a big girl now." And she's so far out of her depth that you're just kind of like, "Oh, child."

Evelyne:

Yeah, even Casteel's like, "Okay."

Daniella:

Yeah, exactly.

Evelyne:

"Sure."

Daniella:

Exactly. But yeah, she's trying so hard to break this kind of view of her where she is this sheltered, naive, innocent person. But she is, that is, and she doesn't really outgrow that in the way I think the author wants her to, even by the end of the fourth book.

Evelyne:

I know. Because she's supposed to be leading everybody in this fourth book, and she doesn't.

Daniella:

Doesn't.

Evelyne:

She doesn't step up the way she needs to in this fourth book. And I think...

Daniella:

I found it frustrating.

Evelyne:

It's very frustrating, because a lot of this book is her worrying about Casteel in captivity, and then her also learning about her new powers and all of that too. And us learning about what heartmates truly means.

Daniella:

Oh, let's talk about heartmates for a minute, because I do not generally respond well to the insta-love, soulmate, love at first sight, heartmate thing. That is not-

Evelyne:

To be fair, that was not what happened, necessarily.

Daniella:

No, no, no, it's not. But that is not something that generally I respond well to. It's just not for me. I know that a lot of people love it, that's totally fine, there's no judgment there. That's not for me. I will say that I was confused, because she made such a big deal about the fact that Poppy and Casteel were heartmates, and then suddenly now they're in a triad with Kieran.

Evelyne:

With Kieran, who just appears out of nowhere?

Daniella:

Yeah.

Evelyne:

Yeah.

Daniella:

And it's funny to me too, because it wasn't really out of nowhere, because she was kind of dropping hints throughout the first three books. And so to have it finally happen, you're kind of like, "Well, I knew this was coming, but I'm also so confused, because if they're heartmates... Why?"

Evelyne:

Why the attraction to someone who's not in the thing?

Daniella:

Right.

Evelyne:

Yeah.

Daniella:

And it just felt so dissonant to me, it just didn't connect, which I think bothered me more than anything. I can get past the heartmates thing, fine, whatever. But yeah, it was just weird. It was just weird to me.

Evelyne:

So, let's just get the elephant in the room out of the way. Let's just talk about it now, because that's where the racism comes in. So we have Kieran and we have him, he is a werewolf, and he is in servitude, essentially, to Casteel. And Kieran is dark skinned. He is not necessarily called a Black man, but he is dark skinned. And even his name means that.

Daniella:

Means black. Yeah.

Evelyne:

Yes. It's not good.

Daniella:

It's not good.

Evelyne:

So he is a servant to a white man, and he turns into an animal. So right away, it's bad. Right away, it's bad. So that already is not good. And this is a very common trope, and it happens a lot.

Daniella:

It happens a lot. White authors especially, they don't realize the unconscious biases happening, where they're making an animalistic culture, but they're making them be dark skinned. And that is problematic.

Evelyne:

I think she still is an independent author, correct?

Daniella:

I think so.

Evelyne:

And she makes enough, she can hire a sensitivity reader who could have caught this. But she didn't, so this has continued now from book one, where this started, to now. So this has continued on, and now we are in a place where we have two heartmates who are connected via dream. They're so connected, they're dreaming of each other, and can talk to each other in their dreams, and are of a higher social status. Then Kieran, who is essentially a servant and a soldier. And then they have, finally, which all the readers have been waiting for, because it's been hinted at, there's been suggestions about it, and then they have to bond to save Kieran's life.

Daniella:

Were the readers looking forward to it, or were they fighting it as much as possible?

Evelyne:

So now we feel like Kieran doesn't even have a choice in the matter.

Daniella:

Right, that's what upset me too, is I felt like he was like, "Oh, we have to do this thing. Okay." And now he's in this lifetime connection.

Evelyne:

Bond.

Daniella:

Yeah! Yeah.

Evelyne:

It feels really unbalanced, and really fetishy, and really gross.

Daniella:

Which is also annoying, because I feel like Kieran, as a character, is so awesome.

Evelyne:

I love him and I want to protect him. And it's so gross feeling!

Daniella:

Yeah. He's so sarcastic, and he's so insightful, and he's so smart. And I would love to see him be developed into a true representation of who he could be.

Evelyne:

Yes! Yes. And instead, we get this.

Daniella:

And instead, he's now this part of this triad, which, yeah, it is unbalanced, and it kind of gives me the ick.

Evelyne:

It doesn't seem like he has a choice. It's gross.

Daniella:

Yeah. It's just a little bit problematic. But also, it's not just Kieran.

Evelyne:

No, there's Tawny.

Daniella:

There's Tawny, whose name also means brown.

Evelyne:

Brown. Who is a servant for Poppy in the first book, who then is killed.

Daniella:

But she comes back.

Evelyne:

She comes back lighter skinned!

Daniella:

With light hair.

Evelyne:

What the hell?

Daniella:

It's super unfortunate, because there were so many opportunities that this could have been-

Evelyne:

This is book four, though.

Daniella:

Yes.

Evelyne:

And I am a hundred percent sure that someone has told her this before now.

Daniella:

It's definitely possible.

Evelyne:

At some point. I'm a hundred percent sure she has heard this before now, because I have seen reviews, so I know that it is out there. I'm almost positive that she has heard this by now. So at this point, it becomes denial, and it's necessary, because it is so obvious.

Daniella:

Yeah, it's problematic, for sure.

Evelyne:

And the thing with the threesome is it felt so unbalanced and forced that I couldn't enjoy it.

Daniella:

Oh, well, the other reason I couldn't enjoy it is I could not follow what the fuck was happening. It was so chaotic, and I was like, "Whose finger is what? I don't know what's going on right now. This isn't even hot because I don't know who's touching whom and what." And I understand that she wanted it to feel that way, she wanted it to be so overwhelming that they even didn't really know. But as a reader, I'm like, "Okay."

Evelyne:

I still kind of want to know whose hand is whose.

Daniella:

Yeah, exactly! I don't understand who's touching who, and it kind of is important to know.

Evelyne:

And I know that she was trying to build a relationship between Poppy and Kieran because while Casteel was in captivity, Kieran was looking out for Poppy, and he was donating his blood to her because she needed it now, because she has all these powers and stuff. And I know, it's funny, because I was on TikTok when all of this was happening, and there were so many fans who were like, "Emotional cheating, emotional cheating! Mayday, mayday!" And I remember thinking, "No."

Daniella:

No.

Evelyne:

This feels like friends. This does not feel like emotional cheating, because at this point, it was fine. At this point, it just felt like friends helping out friends, supporting friends.

Daniella:

Right, they're both missing their friend who was incarcerated.

Evelyne:

A hundred percent.

Daniella:

Yeah.

Evelyne:

There was no weirdness at this point.

Daniella:

I do think that eventually, it gets to the point of trauma bonding, which is problematic, because you mistake feelings for something else.

Evelyne:

Yes. And so then we have this threesome, which is unbalanced and forced, because it's necessary to save his life. It is not something that is asked for and consented to. It is necessary to save his life.

Daniella:

It has to be done.

Evelyne:

That is so not okay for me.

Daniella:

Yeah.

Evelyne:

It just gives me so much ick.

Daniella:

No, I agree. It was problematic, for sure.

Evelyne:

That is dubious consention to the max.

Daniella:

Yeah.

Evelyne:

Just to the max. And I know that Kieran's okay with it, he says so in the book.

Daniella:

Yeah, he's given his consent multiple times. It wasn't even just once, but it still feels...

Evelyne:

Gross.

Daniella:

Because it does feel forced. It feels like-

Evelyne:

It does.

Daniella:

"I know that we have to do this, so yes, I'm on board." And it's like, okay, but that's not really consent then.

Evelyne:

Yes!

Daniella:

Yeah.

Evelyne:

Yeah!

Daniella:

Yeah, I agree.

Evelyne:

It's...

Daniella:

I do want to talk a little bit about Poppy too, because in the beginning, I was rooting for her. I was like, she's a little bit sheltered, she doesn't really know what the bigger world is, but she's trying. She's trying so hard to be a good person, and she's trying so hard to do the right thing, and she's trying to be strong, and I really appreciate that. But eventually, she kind of just started to annoy me.

Evelyne:

Oh my God. She just starts waffling, and she gets this feeling of like, "Am I really mattered? Do I really?" So Armentrout falls into this same trap as SJM falls into.

Daniella:

Yes.

Evelyne:

Which is, "I'm going to now make my kick-ass female character into a weakling." And I don't know what that is about.

Daniella:

She gets nerfed, because she's too powerful. And I think this happens a lot, actually, with both male and female characters, where you make them so powerful that either you have to make the bad guy be so powerful to combat them that it's believable they could fail. Or, and this is what usually happens, you nerf them so that they really aren't that powerful, so that it could seem likely that they would fail, and it makes their chances of success seem less likely. And unfortunately, for women characters specifically, it tends to fall in the category of, "We're going to take her strongness away."

Evelyne:

She has to sacrifice.

Daniella:

"Strongness", I meant strength.

Evelyne:

She has to sacrifice herself in some way to save everybody.

Daniella:

Right, exactly. And that is generally reserved for women, unfortunately, which is really sucky.

Evelyne:

It is!

Daniella:

That sucks. And it's not a Jennifer Armentrout thing, that is something that happens often.

Evelyne:

A lot.

Daniella:

Often.

Evelyne:

Yeah. A lot.

Daniella:

In epic fantasy, a lot. And fantasy in general, I would say, it happens a lot. Yeah.

Evelyne:

Absolutely. A hundred percent, for real. And I agree with the pacing too, because the first half of it, Casteel's in captivity, and it's just like, "Okay. Still in captivity." The dragons though?

Daniella:

Oh, love them! So good.

Evelyne:

They're the highlights.

Daniella:

Yeah, absolutely. They just say whatever pops into their head.

Evelyne:

Because they don't give one fuck-

Daniella:

About anything.

Evelyne:

... about social conventions.

Daniella:

Anything!

Evelyne:

They're like, "What the fuck are pants?"

Daniella:

Yeah! "Why do I have to wear those? That seems not comfortable."

Evelyne:

"I don't care." And Poppy's like, "You have to wear pants." "No, I don't."

Daniella:

"Make me."

Evelyne:

"I'm just going to go kill these people." "You can't kill those people!" Was like, "Yeah, I can."

Daniella:

"Why not?"

Evelyne:

And I'm so bored, I'm like, "Go fucking kill them! I want you to do something."

Daniella:

I know. I know, I know. And it does, the pacing becomes more of an issue as it goes on, which is unfortunate.

Evelyne:

Especially because I loved the first book so much.

Daniella:

I think that's why I get frustrated too, is because I actually really enjoyed the first book, and I was like, "I can't wait to see where this goes."

Evelyne:

Yes.

Daniella:

And then there were diminishing returns with each book. And that makes me sad.

Evelyne:

Especially because... So we have the racism and the fetishization get worse with every book. And then we also had... So Poppy was described in the first book as being "curvy".

Daniella:

Curvy.

Evelyne:

Or fat. She never said fat.

Daniella:

She never said fat, she said curvy.

Evelyne:

She said curvy.

Daniella:

Which is a cop out a lot of the time.

Evelyne:

Oh God, so often.

Daniella:

Yeah, so often, yeah.

Evelyne:

So as a person who forever has struggled with her fucking weight, I have to go, "Okay, was she curvy, was she actually fat, or was she just hourglass shape?"

Daniella:

Right.

Evelyne:

What does that fucking mean?

Daniella:

You could describe either one of us as curvy, but it means something entirely different.

Evelyne:

Absolutely different.

Daniella:

Yeah.

Evelyne:

Was she a size 18 or 20?

Daniella:

Right. Or was she a size 4?

Evelyne:

Or was she just a size 12-

Daniella:

Yeah, exactly.

Evelyne:

... with curves?

Daniella:

Yeah, exactly.

Evelyne:

Can she buy off the rack?

Daniella:

Yeah.

Evelyne:

Is the question.

Daniella:

Yeah. Right. I do feel like, and it is unfortunate, because I do feel like she started... I got the impression that she started plus size.

Evelyne:

I think so. I think book one, she was plus sized.

Daniella:

But by book four...

Evelyne:

All that descriptor?

Daniella:

She is now thin.

Evelyne:

Yeah.

Daniella:

And I don't know, part of it, I'm like, "Okay, she's a vampire, so maybe she lost a lot of weight?" Which, fine, write that in there. Make that a thing.

Evelyne:

But put it in there, don't just make it disappear.

Daniella:

Yeah, but it was weird that it just kind of went away, and you don't see any other characters who are heavy at all.

Evelyne:

At all. It just kind of went away.

Daniella:

Yeah, it just vanished.

Evelyne:

And so that's where the fatphobia comes in. She was described as plus size, and you think you're going to have a plus size heroine, and then all of a sudden she's not.

Daniella:

Yeah, it's weird.

Evelyne:

It's weird, yeah.

Daniella:

Yeah.

Evelyne:

It is fucking weird. And it's like, okay, because she's a vampire, all of a sudden her metabolism is superhuman and she becomes thin? Say that.

Daniella:

Yeah, just say that. Make that a thing.

Evelyne:

But don't be like, all of a sudden, using non-thin descriptors.

Daniella:

Don't retcon her into being thin, that's not how it works. Make her fat or make her thin.

Evelyne:

Don't promise a reader something and then not deliver it.

Daniella:

Yeah, I agree. Especially because there's so little representation-

Evelyne:

So little!

Daniella:

... for plus-size women, especially in fantasy.

Evelyne:

Yes, and because already, people are saying, "She can't ride a horse that long because she's fat." Or, "She can't do this because she's fat." No, I'm serious, I am serious. People are saying she can't do this exercise stuff because she's too fat to do that. I'm totally-

Daniella:

So, fat people don't do things?

Evelyne:

The thing is, fat people exercise, they hike, they ride horses, and they do shit, and they do all of that shit, and that doesn't necessarily equate to losing weight.

Daniella:

Someone being fat doesn't mean that they don't take care of themselves, that they're not healthy.

Evelyne:

Exactly. Exactly.

Daniella:

That is something that we need to get out of our heads. That is not how it works.

Evelyne:

Again, I struggled with weight my entire fucking life, and I remember having a calorie deficit of a thousand calories a fucking day, and not losing a fucking pound.

Daniella:

Oh man, I did not struggle with my weight. My entire life, I was historically underweight until I hit 30. And then now I can't lose weight to save my life because hormones fucking suck.

Evelyne:

Yes! It is bullshit.

Daniella:

It's bullshit.

Evelyne:

So people can shut the fuck up about fat people.

Daniella:

Yeah, there's this idea, there's this inherent idea that fat people are lazy, that they eat too much, there's so many things that are-

Evelyne:

And it's ridiculous!

Daniella:

... just so incorrect.

Evelyne:

Genetics and... There's a whole bunch of factors to consider.

Daniella:

Absolutely.

Evelyne:

And people need to just shut up and they have to understand that that's not what goes into it.

Daniella:

All body types are fine.

Evelyne:

Yes. And so to retcon her into a thin person, and not talk about it? What the fuck?

Daniella:

Not great. So bad.

Evelyne:

And so I'll say this, because people are going to go to my TikTok now and be like, "Well, you're a thin person." I'm like, "Well, I am now. But I haven't always been." And so I will always consider myself a part of the plus size community, because I was a size 18 to 20 for 15 years.

Daniella:

Yeah, it was a long time.

Evelyne:

And it is bullshit. It just is. So Poppy either needs to be fat... And fat is not a bad word.

Daniella:

Absolutely not.

Evelyne:

I am tired of people thinking that fat is a bad fucking word. It's not.

Daniella:

Absolutely not.

Evelyne:

You can be fat, it's a descriptor.

Daniella:

Yep.

Evelyne:

It's just a fucking descriptor.

Daniella:

Robert Jordan uses plump all the time.

Evelyne:

All the time! There's nothing wrong with that.

Daniella:

All the time.

Evelyne:

I'm fucking plump. I got fucking plump things all the way down here.

Daniella:

Who doesn't have a little plumpness, right? I've got some rolls.

Evelyne:

God, I gave birth to two babies. I am plump. I am plump as fuck.

Daniella:

That should be your next tattoo.

Evelyne:

I'm plump as fuck.

Daniella:

Just get a tramp stamp that says "plump as fuck".

Evelyne:

Oh my God, my husband would actually fucking [inaudible 00:25:20].

Daniella:

That'd be hilarious! Oh my God. I will pay for it.

Evelyne:

Actually just right across my ass.

Daniella:

Yeah!

Evelyne:

Just like "plump as fuck".

Daniella:

So good. So good. So good.

Evelyne:

But yes, anyway.

Daniella:

We're getting a little distracted. Okay, so we talked about the fatphobia a little bit. I do want to talk to you about... I know that Jennifer Armentrout released these without really getting them edited and stuff, which-

Evelyne:

Yes, I don't think she has an editor?

Daniella:

Listen, I understand. Editing is expensive. It costs a lot of money, and especially when you're a self-publisher.

Evelyne:

Look, I just actually looked into this. It's expensive as fuck.

Daniella:

Yeah, when you're a self-publisher, and you're literally paying for everything on your own, it is a lot of money.

Evelyne:

Yes. However-

Daniella:

But-

Evelyne:

... this is a fourth book, and she's hit fame. People are buying her books.

Daniella:

And there are some things that I think an editor would help her with, and one of those things is the names.

Evelyne:

I would like to say that Daniella is an accredited editor.

Daniella:

I am, I literally have a certificate from the University of Chicago, and if I got a book like this, I would have, in the first book, said, "This is problematic because it's confusing." She's got a character whose name is Vikter.

Evelyne:

The Vikter thing!

Daniella:

But then she introduces this whole new concept in the third book, or the fourth book, I can't even remember, where there's also a title of Viktor.

Evelyne:

Yes!

Daniella:

And they are spelled differently.

Evelyne:

What's up with that?

Daniella:

But it's so confusing that she also interchanges them a couple of times.

Evelyne:

She does!

Daniella:

And so as a reader, you're reading it and you're like, "I don't really understand what we're talking about right now. Are we talking about Vikter, the character, or are we talking about Viktor, the title?" It's too confusing. And honestly, it seems to me she always had in mind that Vikter was going to be a Viktor, which great, fine. That's totally fine. Have a different title for when he comes into that power.

Evelyne:

My God, it was so confusing.

Daniella:

So confusing! And unnecessarily so. And that was something that an editor could have been like, "I don't really know what's happening. If I don't know what's happening, your audience isn't going to know what's happening."

Evelyne:

It was so confusing. By the end of book four, I was like, "What is going on?"

Daniella:

I know!

Evelyne:

"Who's Vikter?"

Daniella:

And it's annoying too, because actually Vikter, the character, is really compelling.

Evelyne:

I liked Vikter! I loved him!

Daniella:

He is Poppy's first ally, he is the first one who's like, "I am on your side, always, forever. I have your back." And he's the only one, really, that is that to her.

Evelyne:

I loved him.

Daniella:

And then to add this concept in that adds this uncertainty and this confusion, and I'm like, you're taking away from this character that I love so much.

Evelyne:

I know!

Daniella:

And now I'm just confused about what the fuck is happening!

Evelyne:

I know! It was so upsetting. Like, what? I'm so confused!

Daniella:

I know!

Evelyne:

Is he good? Is not good? What's going on?

Daniella:

Also, there's Malec and Malik. And honestly, all I have in my notes is Malec versus Malik, and I don't know which is which!

Evelyne:

Okay. So it's like, okay, so are you trying to confuse us so we don't guess what's happening? Is that the point? Are you trying to make it so smart people get confused?

Daniella:

Because it's working.

Evelyne:

Are you saying, "Okay, honors kids, I got you! I see you!"

Daniella:

"[inaudible 00:29:01], fuck you!" It's so frustrating though, because you're reading along, you're like, "Okay, I'm following, I'm following, I'm following." And then all of a sudden you're like, "Wait, what? Who are we talking about? What's happening?"

Evelyne:

Oh my God!

Daniella:

I know. The big twist in book four, I feel like we should talk about it.

Evelyne:

Okay.

Daniella:

Because I feel a little bit bad, but I lol'd. I lol'd a little bit, only because, listen, the twist was great. There was nothing wrong with the twist. But what I lol'd about was the fact that the Primal of Life is like, "I don't want to do this, whatever." He's like, "No, no. I'm the Primal of Death, but I don't want to do this anymore. So I'm the Primal of Life now." But his powers don't work so good-

Evelyne:

No, because he's the Primal of Death!

Daniella:

... because he's the Primal of Death. And so he's messing everything the fuck up. And I'm just like, "All of this, because someone's like, "I need a career change.""

Evelyne:

Right? Right?

Daniella:

I just could not. I was like, I can't. I can't with this. We knew that's where it was headed. She did drop enough breadcrumbs that we were like, "Oh, that does make sense that this is where it's going."

Evelyne:

Yeah, it was not a surprise.

Daniella:

It wasn't a surprise.

Evelyne:

At the same time, you're just like, "Fuck."

Daniella:

I know. And slightly annoyed, because you're like, "So all of this is because some guy decided he was bored?"

Evelyne:

I know, right? Some dudebro is like, "I have a brilliant idea."

Daniella:

"I don't want to do this anymore."

Evelyne:

"I don't want to do this no more. I'm bored. I'm a genius."

Daniella:

"I will be so much better at this than my predecessor, who's actually the Primal of Life."

Evelyne:

Right?

Daniella:

Come on.

Evelyne:

"I'm going to design a brand new app. It's going to be great. It's like nothing anyone's ever designed before. It's just Google 2.0."

Daniella:

Exactly. I'm just like, "My dude, what?" Oh, man. I was a little bit disappointed. We're reading all these books and we're getting to this part, and she's building toward it this entire time, and you knew it was coming, and it hit. And it hit. It landed well. She did a good job building that up. But I was still disappointed in what it was.

Evelyne:

The thing is, we knew it was coming.

Daniella:

Yeah.

Evelyne:

I think if we didn't know...

Daniella:

It would've been easier.

Evelyne:

Yeah.

Daniella:

Yeah, I don't know. There is a fine line that authors have to walk, where it's like you have to drop enough crumbs. It's about set up and payoff, right? We talk about a lot in entertainment especially. There's set up and payoff, where you have to set it up in enough of a way that when it finally cracks, people are like, "Oh, shit! Mind blown. This is amazing."

Evelyne:

This is where the pacing also-

Daniella:

Agreed.

Evelyne:

... was a problem, because it was so slow in the beginning, and then the last, it wasn't even 25%, it was like the last 10%, was like, "Holy shit, it's all happening right now!"

Daniella:

It was too much, too fast.

Evelyne:

And I couldn't keep up, and my brain couldn't absorb what was happening all at once.

Daniella:

She needed to start that sooner.

Evelyne:

Yes.

Daniella:

Because it was too much. I read it and I was like, "I don't even know what the fuck I just read."

Evelyne:

I know. It was literally so much exposition and so much action all at once.

Daniella:

I had to go back. I went back and read it again.

Evelyne:

Yeah!

Daniella:

Because I was like, "I feel like I missed something, but I didn't."

Evelyne:

Exactly.

Daniella:

I didn't!

Evelyne:

But I was still like, "Wait, my brain... Processing." It was literally the processing circle.

Daniella:

Exactly. The rainbow wheel.

Evelyne:

Kept spinning, and I was like, "Okay, wait, I got to go back. I got to go back."

Daniella:

Exactly.

Evelyne:

And I think again, an editor-

Daniella:

Would've helped.

Evelyne:

... would've helped with that, with the pacing.

Daniella:

Yeah. It depends on what kind of editor you're paying, obviously. But a developmental editor definitely would've helped.

Evelyne:

Yes.

Daniella:

And I think one of the notes, if I had gotten that book as an editor, I would've been like, "Here, listen, overall, love the way you're handling this, love the way that this is working, but the pacing is not great. There's so much plotting in the beginning, and then the last quarter is where everything happens, and we need that to happen sooner. Make it the last third."

Evelyne:

You're so in love with your fucking heartmate, who the fuck is Kieran?

Daniella:

I know. I know. Yeah.

Evelyne:

How is he connected to all of this?

Daniella:

It's so annoying too, because I really do like Kieran.

Evelyne:

I love him so much.

Daniella:

I think he's such an interesting character.

Evelyne:

And I want him to have someone who he deserves.

Daniella:

Yeah. Who he chooses.

Evelyne:

Yes!

Daniella:

Really chooses.

Evelyne:

Actually chooses.

Daniella:

Yeah. Isn't forced into.

Evelyne:

Into, yeah.

Daniella:

Yes. Yeah. I agree.

Evelyne:

He deserves someone who loves him for who he is, and he gets to choose.

Daniella:

Yep. Exactly.

Evelyne:

Because he's amazing, and I love him.

Daniella:

I know that we complained a lot about this book, and honestly, I also understand why it became a TikTok sensation.

Evelyne:

It's like the J.J. Abrams of fantasy.

Daniella:

It is. It's flashy, it's quick, it's entertaining.

Evelyne:

Yes.

Daniella:

That is what it is.

Evelyne:

Lots of lens flares, it's literally the Star Trek of fantasy.

Daniella:

Exactly.

Evelyne:

It really is.

Daniella:

Yep, yep. And honestly, I really did enjoy the first book. I really did, I read it so fast. I was like, "Oh, this is so interesting and different." And I was here for it. And then each book started to... It was kind of like Terry Goodkind.

Evelyne:

Yeah.

Daniella:

Right? Where you read the first one, you're like, "Oh my God, this is so great!" And then you read the next one and you're like, "Oh, okay, this was pretty good." And then you read the next one and you're like, "This wasn't very good." And then you read the fourth one and you're like, "Yep, I'm out." It didn't connect with me. And I know that people still are here for it, that's fine. Nobody's telling you what you can and can't like, obviously.

Evelyne:

No, I'm not telling you to burn your books, man. I'm not.

Daniella:

Absolutely not. I would never tell anyone to burn books, ever.

Evelyne:

I am not-

Daniella:

But I'm not going to seek out the next one.

Evelyne:

... probably, going to be reading the next one.

Daniella:

Yeah. The pacing issues for me was too much. Like the fatphobia, the racism.

Evelyne:

The racism, the fact that the racism got worse every book.

Daniella:

Yeah. But I also just... The plot was not...

Evelyne:

The plot wasn't...

Daniella:

I don't know. Yeah, it was just diminishing returns for me, which was unfortunate.

Evelyne:

Yeah, it is.

Daniella:

Yeah. So if you love them, great. No shade on you. Love you. You do you. I'm sure that I read things that you probably don't like, which, fair. We all have our little guilty pleasures, right?

Evelyne:

I have a shame shelf. It's over behind me.

Daniella:

Me too.

Evelyne:

I just don't talk about it, it's why it's a shame shelf.

Daniella:

Exactly. Exactly. That's what I have as well.

Evelyne:

And I'm not telling you what's on it, because it's a shame shelf.

Daniella:

Yeah. But I do reread them occasionally. I wanted to like it, so much. And honestly, this could be something with me too, where I came in with higher expectations, and it just didn't quite meet them. That happens sometimes with movies, where you go in thinking it's going to be amazing, and then it's just okay, and then you're disappointed, because it was just okay. And I think that's how this kind of ended for me, was it was just okay.

Evelyne:

I would be interested to see you read one of... I have to look it up now, because I can't remember, because I'm drunk as fuck.

Daniella:

What do you mean?

Evelyne:

I don't know.

Daniella:

I've had half a bottle of wine.

Evelyne:

Something about drinking all of this fucking espresso martinis.

Daniella:

I can't believe you're drinking espresso martinis. My heart would be pounding out of my chest.

Evelyne:

It's just coffee liqueur, it's not actual coffee.

Daniella:

Have you seen me drink coffee?

Evelyne:

Okay, you little Energizer rabbit, whatever.

Daniella:

I literally sit there thinking, "Oh my God, I'm going to die today."

Evelyne:

So I would say that the younguns on TikTok felt the emotional cheating aspect of this book stronger than the-

Daniella:

Interesting. That's so interesting to me.

Evelyne:

... elder people.

Daniella:

Because I did not see it as emotional cheating. I really didn't.

Evelyne:

I didn't get that at all.

Daniella:

I didn't get that at all. And I'm trying to think back. I'm like, "Okay, is that something that's wrong with me?" Because that's my first response, is, "Am I the problem?" But it just really didn't come off that way. They set up, from the beginning, this kind of friendly banter.

Evelyne:

They did. And she even watched him have sex before.

Daniella:

Yeah, but I kind of did feel like that was borderline.

Evelyne:

I know! It was weird.

Daniella:

It was like, "I'm watching you have sex, but I kind of wish that was me."

Evelyne:

And even when he sent it to her mentally, it was kind of like a poke. It wasn't even kind of a, "I want you to like this." It was kind of like, "I'm a brother, and I'm kind of like... Hee-hee."

Daniella:

I think that's kind of why I had such a problem with him bonding with them, is I felt like, from her side, she was finding him attractive, but from his side, he was more like, "You're kind of like my sister, and I'm taking care of you. And it's so funny that you watched me have sex."

Evelyne:

Exactly, yes!

Daniella:

Yeah.

Evelyne:

Yes. It's like I never really thought that he found her sexually attractive-

Daniella:

Yeah, I agree.

Evelyne:

... until it came time to this fucking bonding thing.

Daniella:

But then also the bond, when you're doing that ceremony and stuff, she made it such a deal where it's like you're so overwhelmed with emotions and feelings and stuff that if you were doing that with your worst enemy, you would find them attractive, and it would be sexy.

Evelyne:

Yes.

Daniella:

And that's the problem for me, is that I feel like all of it was not really consensual on his side. It was so forced on him that if he was a woman, would we be still rooting for this?

Evelyne:

Or even someone who was lighter skinned?

Daniella:

And I feel like, no. I feel like if this was a woman specifically, I don't care what color your skin is, if this was a woman, I would be like, her agency was taken away from her, and she did not have a choice in this. It was like, "Your life is on the line, you have to do this." And of course you're going to say, "Okay."

Evelyne:

Yeah. Or if your boss asks you to do this.

Daniella:

Right. It's just...

Evelyne:

There was an extreme imbalance in this whole thing.

Daniella:

And then how does it work now that they're bonded, and he's a part of their triad?

Evelyne:

Because they're like heartmates, but he's not?

Daniella:

Right.

Evelyne:

So how does that work?

Daniella:

They're also royalty and he's not. So what does that mean for their dynamic? How does that translate?

Evelyne:

Casteel's not alpha protective with him, but he is with everybody else?

Daniella:

Yeah.

Evelyne:

It's so weird.

Daniella:

There were just so many things that I was like, "This just isn't working for me." Even though I knew it was coming. It just didn't land the way that I think she was hoping it would?

Evelyne:

I know.

Daniella:

And that's super unfortunate. It was just slightly disappointing-

Evelyne:

It was.

Daniella:

... really.

Evelyne:

It just felt really gross.

Daniella:

Yeah. It just made me sad.

Evelyne:

I know! I know, it felt really sad.

Daniella:

Also, that scene could have been super hot, but I had no idea what the fuck was going on! So it was not hot!

Evelyne:

Look, I'm a big proponent of MMF scenes, and I was just like, "What?"

Daniella:

I didn't know what was going on. I couldn't follow whose hands were where. I didn't know what was happening, so it wasn't hot. I don't know who's touching whom, and so it wasn't like... I got nothing out of it.

Evelyne:

It was the most, dare I say, generic sex scene?

Daniella:

Right, yes!

Evelyne:

I had ever read.

Daniella:

And it should have been-

Evelyne:

One of the hottest.

Daniella:

... one of the hottest, because it was MMF, and it just did not... I was going to say something, and I'm not going to say it.

Evelyne:

Oh no, now you have to say it. I can edit it out, but now you have to.

Daniella:

It didn't stoke the fires.

Evelyne:

There you go! Yeah.

Daniella:

Which was unfortunate. I don't know, I feel like Kieran constantly gets kind of the dregs.

Evelyne:

Short shafted.

Daniella:

Yeah. It's just kind like, "Here are the leftovers, this is for you."

Evelyne:

Yes.

Daniella:

And it just makes me sad because he's such a smart, fun, interesting character, and I would love to see more from him.

Evelyne:

And I feel like that's kind of how it works with the werewolves in general, is they get the fucking leftovers, which is what makes it so fucking problematic!

Daniella:

Which sucks, because they're the muscle. They're literally the ones out there fighting, and I want them to have more agency.

Evelyne:

And that's what makes it so fucking problematic.

Daniella:

I know, it's unfortunate, for sure.

Evelyne:

It is bad.

Daniella:

Yeah, for sure. So, I don't know, we'll see. Maybe the next book will be much better.

Evelyne:

I don't know. But I'm not going to read it.

Daniella:

I'm not going to read it either. I had a hard time getting through this one. By book three, I was halfway through book three, and I texted you and I was like, "I can't read this."

Evelyne:

You were so angry at me.

Daniella:

I was so angry. I was so mad. I was like, "Why the fuck are we reading this?" Okay, okay. Let's talk about our next read, which I'm super excited about. It is Legends & Lattes.

Evelyne:

Woo-hoo!

Daniella:

By Travis Baldree.

Evelyne:

A cozy fantasy [inaudible 00:43:53].

Daniella:

I love my cozies. I do, that's what I'm writing, that's what I love to read. It just makes me happy. So I'm super excited to talk about that one.

Evelyne:

So, we may be sisters, but we different.

Daniella:

We do have different tastes, for sure. That's not to say that I won't read the dark romances and the-

Evelyne:

Well, I don't read dark-dark!

Daniella:

No, that's true. Okay, let me change that to I won't shy away to the monster romances and the paranormal romances.

Evelyne:

I do tend more toward the spicier stuff.

Daniella:

Yeah. That's just not my thing. I like high fantasy and I like urban fantasy, and I like... Is that your bottle all gone?

Evelyne:

All gone.

Daniella:

Oh, sweet Jesus.

Evelyne:

I told you it'd go down [inaudible 00:44:41].

Daniella:

Mother Mary, and Joseph.

Evelyne:

It is gone, it is empty. Anyway, Legends & Lattes.

Daniella:

Legends & Lattes is our next book, so join us next week for that podcast. This is not my final... My final moment? My finest moment. Oh, Jesus. We're so drunk! Somebody stop me.

Evelyne:

Okay! So yes, we will see you next week, when we talk about the cozy fantasy, Legends & Lattes. And it's going to be super, super sweet, because it is a fabulous, cozy fantasy. I'm Evelyne Crowe.

Daniella:

I'm Daniella Drake.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Intoxicated Literature. Drink well, friends.